Did you ever sign a training bond or buy a PPC?

[. ._]

Let's crunch some numbers as a percentage of the industry.

Check out the poll and anonymously vote if you want.

Well, did ya ever do it? Buy a PPC or sign a training bond? Promissary note?

-istp

[Just another canuck]

Just a thought... maybe have three options: bought your job (VAL, Wasaya, etc.), signed a promissory note (Sunwest, Nakina, etc.), neither (never signed a contract of any kind, your word was good enough)

[. ._]

Good idea, JAC. I just changed it.

[Pratt]

Never did, was only asked to sign a bond once but they were abit late with it. They had already trained me before they asked the question, then a few folks left the company and they thought they would try.

I declined.

[Cap'n P8]

I worked at Wasaya. I had a training bond. Yes it was money up front. Every red cent of it was paid back to me by the company...wait for it...on top of salary, benefits and the like. I didn't buy anything, (neither did my parents, because I'm sure that will be the next assumption made.)

I don't have any first hand experience with VAL but I can pretty much guarantee you that Wasaya did not make any money off the training bond money.

[Rudy]

Signed a promissory note. It seemed like a fair solution to the operators losing guys shortly after training. I'd sign another one if I agreed with the terms.
Cash up front doesn't seem right to me. I wouldn't call it buying a job but it seems like a poor decision to me. Airlines go bankrupt all the time. Even the bigger ones. Losing your job plus gaining a huge debt sounds like the worst day ever.

I might consider putting money into an escrow account controlled by an unbiased third party.

[Cap'n P8]

Obviously you have to make an informed decision, and you have to live with the consequences whatever they may be. At the end of the day all anyone can do is act with integrity. Would I have preferred not having to sign the bond, sure. But at the time being it was still the best option for me and my family.

[Just another canuck]

Cap'n P8... just curious if you've chosen one of the three options? The "Bought a Job" is still showing zero votes. Have you not voted? or do you feel you didn't buy your job?

I'm not looking for a flame war here, just wondering...

[Cap'n P8]

I thought my post was pretty clear, I don't believe I bought anything. I got the job on my flying experience. I entered into a training bond which happened to have money at the beginning and it was all returned to me.

Presently I work for Bombardier, they happen to have a bond too, but no money up front. If you want to call that a promisary note, so be it.

[Bushav8er]

I'm curious too. How is signing a bond, where you end up paying NOTHING, 'buying' your job?

Wasaya may have its problems but they do train you; you just promise to stick around a year (big deal).

If people want to rag on pilots, take a look at those in Quebec that get to fly a Ho for 'experience' and NO pay! If you really want to fix aviation there are two main issues:

1) Close the schools/colleges. Make it like nursing - no positions, no classes. When a future deficit is foreseem, open the courses again but only to a limited number suitable for the shortfall,
2) Get all those currently licenced pilots to grow a pair and stop accepting bs conditions. Bottom line is airlines require pilots to work, if pilots ALL say no bond, 8 hours max, min pay etc then that is what would have to happen - even without unions.

We wouldn't have a flooded pilot pool willing to work for free or experience, they wouldn't have too.

Rant over.

[meflypretty]

Training bonds/buying your PPC are just a part of the problem. I would also like to hear about companies with excellent benefits, life insurance, pension matching etc. and keep you around with positive incentives rather than financial punishment.

[. ._]

Keep it all comin' folks.

We gotta get to the bottom of this.

Is it elitist that a dude that can afford a PPC gets ahead in the line?

I dunno.

Thanks for voting!

-istp

[MAG1]

I work for VAL and I'm not sure about the "buying my job" either. They setup a meeting with the bank for my loan; 8 grand for the kingairs and 15 for everything else. Non pro rating and for one year. The money goes into a GIC and I pay the interest. VAL then pays me back for those interest payments and I get the money earned in the GIC at the end of the year and the bank takes back it's money.
I commit for one year with any company I work for. I never thought I'd sign a bond, but VAL's a good company and what they've done here seems good to me. It's like I've invested!

[Cap'n P8]

Training bonds/buying your PPC are just a part of the problem. I would also like to hear about companies with excellent benefits, life insurance, pension matching etc. and keep you around with positive incentives rather than financial punishment.

Wasaya had most of the above (don't remember them providing life insurance) and they have ID travel with Bearskin, Jazz and Air Canada...any more questions? In fact, I would probably still be there today if my dream job close to my hometown hadn't come along.

[Just another canuck]

istp, it appears the pilots who have worked for such companies as VAL and Wasaya are offended by the "Bought your job" option and are either refusing to vote or choosing a different answer.

I thought my post was pretty clear, I don't believe I bought anything.

I work for VAL and I'm not sure about the "buying my job" either.

It's like I've invested!

I'm surprised a few members haven't jumped at this yet, but I suppose it has been beaten to death.

But, seriously MAG1, look at it however you want... whatever makes you sleep better at night. But a company is supposed to INVEST in you when it comes to initial employment, not vice versa. Of course, you only had to pay that bond once, right? They wouldn't make you pay when going to a different aircraft?

[roughterrain]

[quote="Bushav8er"]

If people want to rag on pilots, take a look at those in Quebec that get to fly a Ho for 'experience' and NO pay! If you really want to fix aviation there are two main issues:

quote]

Use a rare scenario to defend a company that has 95 pilots, 25 planes, and does 703, 704, 705 ops, way to go.

Lets say you fork out $10k for a direct entry caravan or pc-12 spot, you stay there for 3 years all is good. Left seat 1900 spot opens up, guess what you will need fork out another $6500 to this buy that job.

[Bushav8er]

it appears the pilots who have worked for such companies as VAL and Wasaya are offended by the "Bought your job" option and are either refusing to vote or choosing a different answer.

Again...it costs us NOTHING in the end, therefore we paid NOTHING and didn't "Buy our job". What we did do was promise to stay for a least 1 year so I voted "signed a bond". A year. Big deal

[Just another canuck]

it appears the pilots who have worked for such companies as VAL and Wasaya are offended by the "Bought your job" option and are either refusing to vote or choosing a different answer.

Again...it costs us NOTHING in the end, therefore we paid NOTHING and didn't "Buy our job". What we did do was promise to stay for a least 1 year so I voted "signed a bond". A year. Big deal

Yes, yes... I understand how YOU feel. I'm just saying that option is there for the pilots who have had to pay cash up front prior to training. Call it what you will... feel about it however you feel. I don't really give a shit. The point is we're getting inaccurate results because you don't want to click the option that describes how you got your job. Perhaps, instead of "Bought a job", "Paid money prior to training" would have been better and you may have clicked it then.

Whatever... I don't really care anyway.

[Doc]

Well, you know which way I voted. Shake hands. It's always been good enough. Never had to sign a bond at Wasaya either.

But, Cap'n P8, et al......if you put money up front for a job, you bought the job. You can qualify it all you want. You can justify it any way you want. Sugar coat it, even.....you bought it.

I bought an old Chevy, and sold it for what I paid for it a year later. I still bought it! I got the benefit of it's use for a year. But, in the end, it was still a purchase.

That's what a purchase is. Money up front for the use of a product, or service. End of story. You bought your job.

Now, you may well feel it was a benefit for you to make the purchase. And, that's fine. For you. I'm happy, you're happy with your purchase. I find it silly that you feel you must defend a decision you made for yourself. Relax.

[Cap'n P8]

Perhaps in deed. It is/was a training bond, the terms of which happened to be money held in advance. By the way, I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. I did and continue to do what is necessary to support my family. That was the best option I had at the time, and I have absolutely no regrets. In fact taking any other job than that one would probably have ended up costing me over 10k in moving costs, etc for much lower salary and benefits.

Wasaya was actually the second company I worked for that had a bond. I worked for North Star Air in YPL before that. Before starting with them I had almost two thousand hours and an ATPL and couldn't find work anywhere. In fact I almost went into ATC because I was so frustrated. So with a new baby in tow and sitting on pogey my options were very limited. It ended up being the best move I ever made.

I'm sorry if someone else feels like they were skipped over by me because of the bond issue, but there are apparently lots of companies who instead ask for a promissary note, and some who ask for nothing at all. You can always apply to one of them.

PS Doc, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't answer to you. BTW which view of Wasaya are you taking today? The one where we are/were a bunch of douchebags, or the one from a little while ago where we are/were a good bunch of guys?

[Cap'n P8]

Also, it's not the decision I am defending. It's the ongoing attitude that someone thinks I have somehow skipped them, or that I was un or underqualified for the job. Or that I must somehow be unsafe, or I don't know anything about airmanship, etc. Because I've seen it all on this board, mostly from people who hide behind user names.

[Doc]

Cap'n P8, you do what you need to do. Don't recall ever claiming you were not qualified, didn't demonstrate good airmanship, or that you were a douchbag? I don't agree with money up front. Let's not beat it to death. We don't agree. Move on.
I get to YPL every month or so....I'll PM you next time. We'll do coffee.

For the record......the Wasaya pilots I've met have been very nice people. The "douchbag" comment (if there was one, because I tend to use the word maggot, not d-bag) is aimed at the practice of paying up front money.

[Cap'n P8]

I paraphrased the douchebag part. But the problem is that you start on a rant and then guys come out of the woodwork and start insinuating or outright saying the type of shit I described here, and I get tired of hearing it. Most of the time I don't bother anymore, but every once in a while I feel like firing back. That's all, end of story.

You're going to have to travel further than YPL to have a coffee with me though I work in YUL now for FlexJet Canada (Bombardier), and live just east of Cornwall. Tell you what though, if you ever make it out this way I will buy you a coffee.

[TG]

What about Air Canada and it's first two years at "low" salary ?
Why wouldn't be this considered as sort of buying your training as well ?

[Doc]

You're going to have to travel further than YPL to have a coffee with me though I work in YUL now for FlexJet Canada (Bombardier), and live just east of Cornwall. Tell you what though, if you ever make it out this way I will buy you a coffee.

Sounds like a great job! Congrats. Bet you don't miss the Pickle at all!