industry rant

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:26 am

I have been reading the salary site, and the other one that lists airline salaries, and I am staggered to see that the majority of the jobs out there, even the so-called majors, pay much less than $100.000 per year for their most senior captains. $76,800 for a Jetsgo captain? I know a Coke-truck driver who gets over $100,000 and he doesn't have to do twice annual medicals or pass a 6-month ride. He does hump a lot of Coke cases (who drinks all that sh*t?). Bet he moves less freight than the average northern pilot though.

What's happened to this great career? How have we changed from crew entrusted to the safekeeping of people's lives to the reviled, overpaid (hah) nuisances that we all are?

What has happened to us that the best that the majority of us Canadians can ever hope to get from this is a mediocre salary, a lifetime of poverty (try and buy a house anywhere closer than a 100 miles to a Walmart, anywhere in Canada), a future of job-jumping, no roots, leaving friends behind, never seeing your kids' grow up, missing all of the important events with your wife (what wife?), having enforcement fears, the loss of a medical or the company going t/u, and last but not least, the joy of paying back a huge student loan for the first ten years of your working career and knowing in advance your salary is capped?

Why is it that in Canada now you must have at least two salaries and perhaps three before you can rise up enough financially to just buy a place to live? What has gotten into us where we are just tickled pink with the prospect of the government providing child-care for us so more of us can work?

Why do we put up with this? Why do we argue about a/c serviceability, fuss about breaking the rules, push weather, fly around IFR without the proper navigation equipment, cheat on our logbooks, and cover for the company when we work longer than 15 hours in a day? Pack a pager/cell phone for 24/7?

Stabbing each other in the back for a $30,000 Navajo job, eating stale Tim Hortons and dreaming of a life of debt while driving an old MD-80?

What happens to all of those who bought their type ratings when the owner takes all the money and the company goes to the wall? Has anyone looked at how long the average airline, with one exception, has been in business? Ever try to buy a car with a bad credit rating? Ever tried to get a new job after having had 10+ years of seniority erased?

Do you feel guilty 'cause your salary was too high and the company bit it?

I think there are valid reasons for joining this industryl, as I am certainly still involved, but it would seem that working conditions, salary, benefits, children, lifestyle and the ability to prepare for your retirement aren't any of them.

Did you know that for every year you long-haul pilots retire before age 60, you will live three additional years longer because of avoiding radiation at high altitudes? That some airlines are limiting their crews to one over-the-pole flight per month (wear a lead ball cap in your A340)? Forced retirement at 60 and die at 62 anyone?

Ever notice how its only other pilots who want to know what you did today?

I would seriously recommend to anyone contemplating a career in this industry to carefully do your homework and have a contingency plan for when it doesn't work out for you. Do not put all your eggs in one basket, prepare for the worst (unless you can live on $700 per month, which is what the Canada Pension is running now. If you work as a Walmart greeter or a crossing guard, the government takes back 50% of the pension for every dollar you make).

Ok, so flame away...

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:42 am

Better yet. Why is it that a guy who skates around a sheet of ice going after a black piece of rubber, thinks he should get 10-15(+) times more pay/money then the guys in the front seet of the airplane he just flew in on.
This world is pretty screwed up no matter what your job might be.
Have fun trying to figure it all out.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:13 am

It all comes down to the fact that passengers now feel they have the divine RIGHT to fly 3000NM for a few hundred bucks. And the fact that 80% of aviation owners are total crook shysters who couldn't organize a pissup in a pub. And the fact that 80% of pilots are complete financial morons who wouldn't know the real value of their experience if it fell off a 10 story building and hit them on the head, and even if they did, are too wimpy to stand up and fight for what they deserve anyway.

Out of Control · Post by **Out of Control** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:26 am

XSbank- Well said, lets strike

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:30 am

with the rumour of a strike, i can almost hear the hands being rubbed together in anticipation from all the scabs just waiting on the sidelines. Put me in coach, put me in

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:40 am

well said xs....i myself have been contemplating those things lately. Aviation is definitely not what it used to be, or at least how I thought it used to be. I definitely see a lot less earning potential, and a lot less job satisfaction than there used to be. I am lucky right now in that I have decent job satisfaction and a good company. But so much time away from home cannot be sustained long term. and to go anywhere else in the industry at my experience level would provide much less favourable working conditions.

what to do? go to med school, i guess then just make enough money to buy a beech staggerwing.

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:51 am

The system is like that because pilots made it like that. Don't blame the operators, they just take advantage of our weakness. In short, this is nothing less than a legal sweatshop, where undercutting the next guy are the magic words.

As far as money goes, the system was created to cause conflict between pilots therefore low salaries. Do you think doctors or lawyers would put up with this kind of shit? At my previous flight school, instructors would kill each other over an hour in the twin. One time two instructors almost got physical in front of students, and these guys were like best of buddies. How sad does it get???

The situation is getting out of hand, and pilots need to step up. Nobody spends $40,000+ and puts in all the effort to make $700 dollars a month.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:49 pm

Hi Xbank

So, do you have a resume in at Coke yet? I hear ya man! So it has been said that we are our own worst enemies. I could not agree more.

So, what are we, as pilots, going to do about it?!!!

pilotbc69 · Post by **pilotbc69** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:24 pm

Yes ladies and gentlemen. It is a bitter taste Hoping for the triple digits. What indeed can we do to save ourselves besides lowering our expectations. we must learn to accept that the olden days are the olden days. You can't unchange increasing "safety", technology, and reinstill the glamour that flying once had. the public has become desenitized airlines don't hold the glamour they once did.

Sad to say my friends but someday we will be telling our compadres about how things were and how better it was. When computers are greasing on landings in zero-zero wx, automation is the rule more than an aid. Maybe some glorified geek will be doing our job from a desk somewhere. Make the best of it kids because someday these days will be the good old days.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:22 pm

I think I'll climb into a hot bath with my rubber ducky. And a toaster!

peeelot · Post by **peeelot** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:57 pm

Even better somone who work on the line for GM have bigger houses then most pilots. It just like police why does someone working the line at GM deserve more money then someone who serves and protects. But I guess that is how it is boys and girls if your a monkey with half a brain and your head up your a** you can make double then someone with an education.

... · Post by **...** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:18 pm

Doc wrote:I think I'll climb into a hot bath with my rubber ducky. And a toaster!

Not if I beat you to it DOC

PA-31heavy · Post by **PA-31heavy** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:29 pm

My theory has always been, and you may disagree but,

The harder that you work the less money you get, the less you work the more.

You take a guy in any industry that works hard and they will make less than a guy in a industry where they do nothing.
happy flights all

canoe · Post by **canoe** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:00 pm

Funny i've been discussing with another couple of pilots on another are of this forum who believe that 16000 (at the high end) is an acceptable entry level wage!! Can't think of another professional that would lower himself to that level. Seems making as much as a 17 year old kid could as a cashier in a year is acceptable for some people. Buy hey working for that money might get them up to the next level and after 10 yrs they might be worth 25000 and a happy meal!!!!

skywagon · Post by **skywagon** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:56 am

An employer recently told me that pilots just want the LIFESTYLE !! Did they forget normal everyday costs like groceries, phone, car repairs, and RENT/ MORTGAGE payments just to exist outside of a cardboard box. What a joke. I choose aviation as a job, beacause I have to work for a living. Low pay is an insult, and is what drives pilots to continually look for greener pastures, which adds to the problems in aviation as a whloe. Cheers.

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:00 am

Playing devils advocate for a minute....
Yes, 16K a year is a horribly unacceptable entry level wage for a professional pilot or any profession for that matter... However I would like to point out that ANYONE who wants to be a physician, can expect to spend a MINIMUM of 2 years at an internship(working for free). So, they are infact "paying for their training". Not only are they paying for their training by paying their tuition for med school (around 50 K a year btw) but they also work 16 hour shifts at ER`s across the country.. for FREE. So my question is, how is it that they can work for free to get the experience they need to safely and PROFESSIONALY cut us open or stitch us...yet still manage to get entry level positions starting about 80-100K a year for a GP?

This is what makes me shake my head in this industry. We are willing to pay our dues as doctors do, and any other professional. We dropped the ball somewhere though because our industries top jobs in this country have become a joke around the coffee table and a joke to our collegues around the world.
The young guys (and some older ones too) blow it for all of us. Demand what your worth people. If its not fair to you, dont whine about it do something to change it. I could accept 16K as a start point if the top wages were more inline with what we do and what we should be paid for. My question to everyone is..if we had a deal similiar to Doctors.. would it be acceptable to work the 1st 2 years for free, say flying the smaller twins
starting right seat Ho for 6 months, then Capt for 6 months, maybe right seat King air 6 months, then finally Capt 6 months. Once you`d done your two year "internship" you take the right seat in a small jet, start at 75K a year. Isnt that similiar to what doctors do? lawyers? ever been to court? ever needed a lawyer but couldnt afford one? Oh wait, DUTY COUNSEL.. lawyers working for free to cut thier teeth as lawyers. Its not the working for free that sunk us. Its works in many other professions it just doesnt work in aviation because we have no real program to follow. If we did it structured like docs, lawyers, teachers etc etc.. wouldnt that allow US to then demand to be paid more fairly on an pre-existing and determined "scale"?

Make no mistake.. we are NOT the only professional industry that works for free. We even modelled ourselves after these great professions.. where we lost sight of reality is in the final outcome. We`ve let Air Canada retire off all the "high end" guys (my uncle being one of them) and they replaced the 250K a year, 11 days on 19 days off schedules per month with 115K salary, 17 on 13 off for an A330 Capt. How is this acceptable to any of us? Why did we let Milton who couldnt run his own family.. take over OUR airline and cut so much and without even any direction they just cut salary and didnt even know why or what it would accomplish other then a positive cash flow for the company thats spent more time in receivership then not over the past 10 years? This allowed players like (with all due respect).. WestJet to come into the mix, and then justify paying a first year F/O less then a factory worker. Then once we accepted this practice.. we then stooped to an all time low with 5000 hour guys and up, paying 30K for the privledge to fly for Jetsgo or another discount pop up airline with a 737 they leased. Is it fair? NO.. but we did it to ourselves. The ultimate question is.. is it too late to repair all the damage we`ve done? Do we now live with the current salary situation and not try to implement change? If we all worked together, i`ll bet we could at least get it back to acceptable from dispicible. Rant over.
Fly safe all.

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:47 am

Aviation is a cruel mistress.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:14 am

Hey Bug

You put together an excellent rant and had me right up to the last paragraph. A 340 Capt at AC is still making over $200K a year with a good schedule and AC has not been in receivership more often than not in the last 10 years. I imagine your blood was pumping pretty hard by the time you got to paragraph three!

Why does a pilot make less than a garbage man, janitor, crossing guard? Because right now as we debate this, someone is accepting those conditions in a job interview and going home with a smile ear to ear. Why? He may just make it to the airlines. What is dominating the airline industry? Low Cost carriers.

This low cost airline thing is great in some respects but what a monster. Has anyone watched AIRLINE on A&E? Look at todays clientelle. Welcome to Jerry Springer airlines where a ticket to Fort Lauderdale is $69. Doesn't matter that you couldn't drive there for that, we pay our pilots less than the guy who details your ski doo!

Everyone likes to say they are modelled after Southwest. One big difference, Southwest pays its pilots properly. I still believe there needs to be a system in place to stop pilot prostitutuion. Isn't prostitution illegal? Not at the carrier level, the entry level. If a PA31 driver or a BE200 driver were ALL getting paid well, then the entry level airlines would have to follow suit.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:51 am

just so you know, intern doctors do not work for free. starting salary is around 40K. but yes, they do work stupid shifts....like 36 hours straight sometimes. although, they are quite possibly sleeping for much of the night portion, they just wake up when a call comes in. So don't kid yourself, for a doctor, paying your dues mean you ONLY make $40K. that's just the first year, it goes up from there. and tuition is not 50K per year. it's about 10K at UBC. It might well be more at other schools. so now you realise we are even more stupid. I fall back on my recommendations above....going to go to med school, then i can afford to buy my Beech 17 Staggerwing and an L39.

-wp

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:58 am

Just a small note - have you figured out yet that the pilot (crew) is the only part of an airline operation whose costs are negotiable? Have you tried negotiating with the fueller, Navcanada, or the guy who sells you the RVSM certification? Do you think that pilot wages have ever sunk an airline? Priced ANY jet parts recently? Seen any owners driving Corollas?

There is a company I know that has the newest, snazziest equipment, probably in Canada, and they are the lowest-paid, cheapest operation probably on the planet, no frills Motel 6 accomodation, no per diems, days off on layovers(!) but people will work for them just to fly a jet...How could you possibly have pride in your work, how could you possibly be safe if you are constantly bummed out; landing in (US monster city) and staying in a crappy dive with an o-dark-30 departure and you do your own flight planning and have to eat breakfast in MacDonald's?

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:17 am

and add to that, everyone thinks they should have access to air travel for less than taking the bus. that is the real problem here, is us as consumers always wanting lower prices. Companies competing for our business are cutting their transportation costs in order to lower product retails prices. It's all very insidious.

but one thing remains....we all love the time in the air or on the one fun layover you get out of all the crappy ones. it's all the other crap that pisses us of!

Jet Dog · Post by **Jet Dog** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:40 am

Yes it is sad, that we who deserve so much more, get soo much less. Few factors for this cause:

1) This is number one, the operators! Some have no aviation experience, and those that do were the rich lil boys who did prositute themselves as pilots, so now they're doing the same unto us, and their company, trying to be as cheap as possible, trying to get away with bad mtc., paying nil to pilots, anything to out do their competetor. However there are still some very good operators out there, but their hands are kinda tied because of these a$$hole operators who can't run a pencil sharpener.

2) Society. I can now fly to the coast for less than I drive, plus I get there faster. Why because I want the cheapest, and then complain when my plane breaks down or can't make it on time etc etc, again, I don't think of I get what I pay for. I want to spend $100 from YHZ to YVR and have WardAir service. So like monkeys that some operators are, they cut as much as they can to appease the customer. But after I take my cross country flight I then go to a hockey game and spend $200 for half decent seats, only to have my team loose in a blow out, sit in something sticky, have the guy next to me spill my drink, the other guy hit on my wife, but it's just the cost of going to games now a days. So now I want to go back to a resteraunt then my hotel, spend $75 for a round trip cab (cabby making more than FO or Jr CA) spend 90 on a good meal and tip 30, just the cost of business. After my time away I want to go back to YHZ for as lil as possible cause I know thats what I can get as this business and it's operators have no spine.

3) Flight schools. Nothing makes me sick hearing yr after yr of the pilot shortage in 5 yrs. The from student to airline pilot in 1 yr (oh you may have to pay your dues, 1 yr ramp, 1 yr on PA31, 1 yr B100, 2 yr DHC8, next 737) the talk to big money, list goes on, and they pump out as many with what ever lie will work, cause they want as much $$ as they can get.

4) Pilots. So many of us have no disregard or respect for eachother. We forget that we're all in the same boat paying the same dues. We bicker, stab, undermine, sleep with mgmt, anything to get ahead faster. So many of us out there from #3 reason that its like throwing a leg of KFC to a pack of hungry horny drunken wolves. So we'll do anything, pay for PPC, pay for bonds, fly for nil, fly for free, suck dick, etc etc We let the operators get away with this, this is why we need a national pilot union, and fast! Those GM guys who make more, or anyone as a matter of fact, why do they get soo much, cause they got a union plan and simple, I'm not one for unions, simply cause you can get some dumba$$ as the head guy... but its how it is... don't pay what we deserve.. ok we strike, or work to rule... err... I can't get er up to FL350 today.. guess FL160 will do, oh and the throttle seems stuck at 50% cruise.. lil induced turbulence coming from the controls somehere...hmmm, hope those pax don't get sick.. Why can ATC threaten to strike and get most of what they want.. they get payed well.. I think they deserve a lil more, but guess they're satisfied, but why is it they have a upper hand... we need them, and there aren't many scabs... we need pilots, but there's a pilot scab at every fast food joint... so we get paid peanuts in comparison.

I could go on.. but whats the point.. things are worse... I feel it, I see it... it's a shame.. our dreams just worth pennies I guess

Soo many friends have left or are thinking of it cause the green pasture is nothing but sand, even myself am near my limit... whatever happened to the glory days of aviation.......

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:46 am

It's basic supply & demand - too many qualified pilots chasing too few seats. Qualified pilots are simply a commodity ... an oversupply of which drives the price down.

The unionized airlines - which used to pay well - can't compete with the non-unionized upstart (LCC) airlines, who pay their staff far less.

If you had a single pilot's union for all airlines, you might have some hope of external equity, as the HR people call it.

Wondering · Post by **Wondering** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:17 pm

Cry me a river, I dont know about you but I became a pilot because I love to fly, if you became a pilot to make money then your a Dumb AXX. and give me a break about the upper level pay, sure the 200K is a thing of the past but 75-100K is out there and by the time you get there your not working the 80h a week 52 weeks a year that a Doctor or lawyer works. Which is what you all seem to want to be payed like. And yes I have worked the ramp and flown the light twin for less then I could make at 7 Eleven. But I love flying. If you dont then get a new job and stop making all pilots look like little bitxxes.

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:29 am

I ain't no expert (yet

), but as you can see from my post, Jet Dog and I think basically the same. It's not that pilots are "little bitches", but the truth is that we tend to go the distance for a job, even if it involves fucking somebody over. It is wrong and everyone knows it, but it's a reality that we have to face. Again as mentioned, the surplus of pilots doesn't help the situation either and flight schools do a great job at selling BS to students . It is time for pilots to come together, join a union and give their job and themselves the respect they deserve. After all, what kind of reputation are we giving to this career and what does the future hold for the generations to come?

TTT-TANGO