Upset training

[MichaelP]

I had a chap in here today who had been asking a question of flying instructors and they did not give him the answer he was looking for. He'll probably read this, and perhaps so will the instructors concerned and they will know who's who...

But this is not about who's who.
In the context of current speculation the question has a lot of relevance.

The question is: Can a Cessna 152/172 be rolled upside down and if it is what do you do about it?

When asked what would happen if full aileron is applied and held, my response was that most often the Cessna would probably go to 90 degrees bank while entering a spiral dive and as such it probably wouldn't end up upside down.

But what if the pitch is controlled and the nose is not allowed to drop?
Yes, a Cessna will roll upside down.
The Cessna has a better roll rate than the Citabria and yet we can roll the Citabria legally. The Cessna 150/152 Aerobat can be rolled legally too, only much quicker than the Citabria!

So the answers given by the instructors were:
1. No a Cessna can't be rolled upside down. (Oh yes it can!).
2. If the Cessna is upside down then you should pull to recover! (Oh no you don't!).

Pulling through from the inverted is a sure way to end up:
1. picking up speed in excess of the Vne.
2. overstressing the aircraft as the speed and G exceed the limits.
3. smacking into the ground as the radius of the half loop increases with the speed.

IOW: Don't pull through!

The correct way is to stop the pitch by moving the control column forward and then rolling the aeroplane level again.

Many airlines do upset training as part of their training and we should too.
If you end up in the wake of a larger aircraft and end up inverted then you'd better know how to recover.
Mountain wave can also do this to you.
Disorientation while in cloud can do it to you!

It has been put to me that our CPL candidates should have upset training and I agree... There's a Decathlon available here to do it in.

Does anyone disagree with upset training as part of becoming a professional pilot?

[AUGER9]

Thanks for that Michael!
I must agree. At the very least, it should be required for instructor candidates.

[Apache64_]

Why not include it with the PPL students as well? Would not have to spend a great amount of time doing it in the later stages of training. Of course the argument could be what is the difference between unusual attitudes and upset training?

[SkyWolfe]

I agree 100%

Thanks for the post. Upset training is also fun

[canpilot]

Hi Michael,

We all need to go for sushi again before I depart to the great White North.


On another note..

I hate aerobatics.. my stomach can't handle it. But you know what... I still think upset training should be mandatory. I want to be able to get out of those aforementioned situations. Which, believe it or not, could actually happen!!! I'd want the skills to deal with it! Want to wear your rain jacket Michael?

[Invertago]

I thought this was a thread on airline customer service agent training.

[SuperchargedRS]

The Cessna has a better roll rate than the Citabria and yet we can roll the Citabria legally.

Really?

I have flown both, though I dont have the numbers off hand I would not feel comfortable trying to take a sky civic wheels to the sky, where as the Citabria had the snap to it that made you feel comfortable in a roll.

[Strega]

There have been people killed (on more than one occasion) when split s'ing out of a botched roll.

When you are inverted NEVER I mean NEVER NEVER pull to recover, the split s is the worst, THE WORST way to recover from inverted flight.

[Hedley]

I hate aerobatics.. my stomach can't handle it

Don't be ashamed - some people get motion sick during sex, too

Seriously, a 172 does very nice aerobatics. It's too bad so
few people here saw Bob Hoover fly. He did airshow aerobatics
in a piston twin!

A very skilled aerobatic pilot can do aerobatics without exceeding
the +3.8G limit of the normal category. Negative G is not required
to be upside down - see vector summation.

Personally I believe that every professional pilot owes it to his
passengers, that if he gets upside down, he should be capable of
recovering from it with minimum loss of altitude. Every year,
people encounter wake turbulence, and should I mention 737
rudder actuators?

[Rockie]

Jet upset training is a requirement for airline operators, don't off hand know if 704,703 etc is the same but a quick check of the CAR's would answer that. The problem is there are no specific maneuvers required and so the scope and severity of the attitudes is left up to the company, and many times the individual instructor. I always put the airplane upside down with nothing but brown showing on the AI and a rapidly increasing airspeed because that is the most critical. But when I take training myself the instructor rarely does that.

IMHO throrough upset training is desirable in every pilot, and essential in professional ones.

[Brewguy]

This was discussed recently in another thread too: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55769

Unfortunately, too few pilots will take this type of training voluntarily. And far too many are too scared (of going upside down) to even try it. Heck, there are pilots out there (private, commercial even instructors) who are still scared of spins. There is no valid reason why the first time someone sees an attitude outside of 45 degrees nose up/down or 60 degrees of bank should be during an actual emergency; but that's the realm that many never stray beyond.

If anyone is interested in the subject, but isn't sure about doing the actual training, I'd at least recommend reading Rich Stowell's book "Emergency Maneuver Training: Controlling Your Airplane During a Crisis". It's well worth the read.

[MichaelP]

The origin of the original question was the ignorance of too many instructors questioned on it and giving unsatisfactory answers.
Like taxying and running up with the control column forward, the art of flying/operating an aeroplane well and with consideration has largely died.

Being very proficient at flying an aeroplane well and accurately while knowing how to recover from unusual situations is what will keep you safe.

The instructor who is not proficient him/herself who later goes on to the low paid job that would not attract a more experienced person owes it to him/herself to be as prepared as possible for what might happen.
Being prepared is the only insurance you have that you might live to get that jet job you want later.

[sepia]

although everyone seems to love hating sault college, you sure do get upset training there. You spend entire lesson plans going through different recovery procedures. Talk about what degree of bank it becomes smarter to continue the roll right trough rather than to stop the roll and recover that way. It's stuff I carry with me today that I'll never forget.

[E-Flyer]

I had a chap in here today who had been asking a question of flying instructors and they did not give him the answer he was looking for. He'll probably read this, and perhaps so will the instructors concerned and they will know who's who...

But this is not about who's who.
In the context of current speculation the question has a lot of relevance.

The question is: Can a Cessna 152/172 be rolled upside down and if it is what do you do about it?

When asked what would happen if full aileron is applied and held, my response was that most often the Cessna would probably go to 90 degrees bank while entering a spiral dive and as such it probably wouldn't end up upside down.

But what if the pitch is controlled and the nose is not allowed to drop?
Yes, a Cessna will roll upside down.
The Cessna has a better roll rate than the Citabria and yet we can roll the Citabria legally. The Cessna 150/152 Aerobat can be rolled legally too, only much quicker than the Citabria!

So the answers given by the instructors were:
1. No a Cessna can't be rolled upside down. (Oh yes it can!).
2. If the Cessna is upside down then you should pull to recover! (Oh no you don't!).

Pulling through from the inverted is a sure way to end up:
1. picking up speed in excess of the Vne.
2. overstressing the aircraft as the speed and G exceed the limits.
3. smacking into the ground as the radius of the half loop increases with the speed.

IOW: Don't pull through!

The correct way is to stop the pitch by moving the control column forward and then rolling the aeroplane level again.

Many airlines do upset training as part of their training and we should too.
If you end up in the wake of a larger aircraft and end up inverted then you'd better know how to recover.
Mountain wave can also do this to you.
Disorientation while in cloud can do it to you!

It has been put to me that our CPL candidates should have upset training and I agree... There's a Decathlon available here to do it in.

Does anyone disagree with upset training as part of becoming a professional pilot?

Essentially what you're saying is being able to acquire survival skills. I didn't learn those until I did my instructor rating.

I think that it should be a part of PPL training and not just CPL. The reason being that a PPL holder may very well end up in the wake of a 777 on final into a big airport. The PPL holder could be ifr rated. The PPL holder can also encounter mountain waves.

So I think that upset training should not only be CPL syllabus, but also PPL syllabus. Unusual attitudes is not enough. We should take those attitudes to worse conditions.

[trampbike]

C172 and C152 don't have fuel pumps, it's gravity fed, so how long can you fly inverted before the engine runs out of fuel?

[Invertago]

C172 and C152 don't have fuel pumps, it's gravity fed, so how long can you fly inverted before the engine runs out of fuel?

I don't think they're talking about sustained inverted flight, however, I can tell you that you have less then 30seconds before it sputters. I wasn't watching the clock at the time.

[GoinNowhereFast]

So there's 2 answers to your question.
1. Same amount of time it takes to glide to the ground while inverted
2. Same as the amount of time you can maintain some positive G through a roll. [your nose will fall quite abit]

[FlaplessDork]

Does anyone disagree with upset training as part of becoming a professional pilot?

Yes, but on the grounds that I can't afford to buy the school an aerobatic airplane.

[Dagwood]

It's too bad so
few people here saw Bob Hoover fly. He did airshow aerobatics
in a piston twin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE&NR=1
Pretty cool. I wish he was my instructor

[Stevo226]

So what about a regular 152? not an Aerobat. I remember once being told that any aircraft can technically do a barrel roll as it's only a 1 g manouver. I have been trying it lately, but I can't seem to get it past about 110 degrees. Too many nerves

[sepia]

So what about a regular 152? not an Aerobat. I remember once being told that any aircraft can technically do a barrel roll as it's only a 1 g manouver. I have been trying it lately, but I can't seem to get it past about 110 degrees. Too many nerves

I would seriously suggest you track down an aerobatic instructor and get someone to show ya how to do it. Definitely not worth screwing it up and bending a plane or killing yourself.

[Osiris]

So what about a regular 152? not an Aerobat. I remember once being told that any aircraft can technically do a barrel roll as it's only a 1 g manouver. I have been trying it lately, but I can't seem to get it past about 110 degrees. Too many nerves

I don't know what your level of aerobatic experience is, but unless you know how to fly a barrel roll, you shouldn't assume it's safe to do in any aircraft that isn't aerobatic. By "know how to fly one" I don't mean that you're simply familiar with the inputs, but that you've seen and flown a barrel roll enough to have it down. A properly flown barrel roll is about a 1g maneuver, but if it's your first time flying one I can assure you it won't be properly flown. On the first try, nobody makes the first half large enough or high enough. This makes the radius of the second half larger than planned. On the pull-out your barrel roll will exceed 1g, your speed will be higher than your entry speed and you'll loose height. Why risk over-stressing the aircraft?

As Sepia said, find an instructor! And please don't fly aerobatic figures in a non-aerobatic aircraft!

[Hedley]

Would you try to teach yourself IFR flying, by taking off
on a crappy day, climbing up into the clouds, and trying
to make your first approach to minimums a solo one?

I would surely hope not.

Similarly, I don't know why so many people have such
contempt for aerobatics that they think it's safe to teach
it to themselves - in a NON-aerobatic aircraft?

I would surely hope not.

When you are learning to fly aerobatics, you will make
mistakes. Trust me on this. An aerobatic airplane is
strong enough to not be damaged when you make a
mistake flying a maneuver.

But from a physics standpoint, a highly skilled and experienced
aerobatic pilot - of which there are less than 10 in all
of Canada, IMHO - can fly a very nice aerobatic sequence
with only +0.5/+3.8 on the G meter at the end, which
is within normal category limits.

Are you one of the 10 highly skilled and experienced aerobatic
pilots in Canada? Statistically, it is doubtful. I can count
these people on the fingers of both hands.

[mcrit]

The correct way is to stop the pitch by moving the control column forward and then rolling the aeroplane level again.

You might want to keep slight + g on and use aggressive (full aileron + rudder if the speed is high) inputs to roll level. Using forward pressure to stop the pitch has a few draw backs, the big one being that if you completely stop the pitch down you will be at -1g and that can be really disconcerting if you're not used to it. The other advantage of keeping + g is your engine fuel and oil systems are less likely to hiccup.

On a side note I knew fellow that thought it might be fun to try a split s from cruise. Upon landing he noticed that the g meter was just touching the max g limit so he told maintainence. The techs pulled the data recorders and it turned out he had been within 1 knot of Vne and .1 of an over g. That was in an airplane designed for aerobatics and (compared to most a/c) high speed. Think about what would happen if you took 172 through an unplanned vertical downline.

[MichaelP]

do a barrel roll as it's only a 1 g manouver

This underlines the ignorance out there....
You might be able to do a barrel roll with a little more than one G in a high speed jet but in our little aeroplanes any deviation from straight and level coordinated flight is a deviation from one G.
Even a gentle turn involves more than one G!

An aeroplane such as a Cessna 152 will take about 2 1/4 G to initiate the barrel roll with about 1/3 G over the top inverted and exiting with a similar g to what you started with.
You have to ensure that when the fuselage reaches level the wings are also level.

If the wings are not yet level when the fuselage is level inverted then you'd better apply more aileron and roll them there otherwise you'll be in the worst spiral dive you can imagine with speed and G building up rapidly.

Whereas the barrel roll can be done in anything stressed for 3 G or more, it is also a manoeuvre that can go horribly wrong.

When doing a barrel roll in a Gardan GY30 Super Cab a few years ago I entered a spin off the top but she came out all right and I was glad there was no fuel in the wingtip tanks!

When teaching aerobatics the barrel roll is the last manoeuvre I teach.

I teach aileron roll, stabilised inverted with different pitch attitudes, inverted turns (pilots usually turn the wrong way until they orientate themselves), then aileron rolls with a little push to hold the inverted attitude in passing, then slower rolls with less and less nose up and using the rudder, and into the proper slow roll.
In this way we learn to handle an aeroplane inverted and to prevent ourselves from getting the tendancy to pull through.
Pulling through from the inverted is highly dangerous.

If a person learns the barrel roll early, then that tendancy to pull and roll becomes a greater possibility when that person loses the aeroplane upside down!

Using forward pressure to stop the pitch has a few draw backs, the big one being that if you completely stop the pitch down you will be at -1g and that can be really disconcerting if you're not used to it. The other advantage of keeping + g is your engine fuel and oil systems are less likely to hiccup.

Even if you zero the G it is better... and minus 1 to 1.5 G may be absolutely paramount.
You have to stop all pitching of the nose towards the ground, apply full aileron and roll the aeroplane level.

The engine is not important and we should close the throttle as we do for a spiral dive recovery then slowly open it up again when we are once again level.

Being inverted is disconcerting so recovery using the best technique is important.

Another problem I have seen again and again is instructors and hence students and renters who do no know how important it is that the lapstrap is really really tight.

ANY TIME YOU ARE FLYING IN ANY AIRCRAFT MAKE SURE YOUR LAP STRAP IS TIGHT!

To quote Norman Jones:

All aircraft bite fools

Do not attempt aerobatics without proper training.