Obama's death panels

[bmc]

NYTimes
Schott’s Vocab - A miscellany of modern words and phrases
August 10, 2009, 11:22 am
Death Panel

Sarah Palin’s uncompromising description of the bureaucrats she claims will ration treatment under Barack Obama’s health care proposals.

Sarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska, made what the Talking Points Memo called “a dire statement about health care reform” on her Facebook page:

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course.

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Health care by definition involves life and death decisions. Human rights and human dignity must be at the center of any health care discussion.

On The Times’s Caucus blog, Katherine Q. Seelye noted:

One problem: None of the bills emerging from various committees includes the kind of “death panel” that Ms. Palin says would be rationing care. It is the kind of mischaracterization that President Obama has complained about, though the White House has had little success in persuading people otherwise.

[Rockie]

Not to mention that Palin's parents and baby will forever recieve the best health care money can buy, and will never be one of the 45 million Americans with no health coverage at all. It's an easy bet that virtually none of the opponents of government health care are without coverage of their own, or are wealthy enough that they can buy the best doctors around without going bankrupt.

[. ._]

The U.S. already has "death panels". They're called "insurance companies".

The Death Panels (insurance companies) decide who lives and dies.

Do you have diabetes? Oh sorry, we can't cover you.

Did you previously have a heart attack? Oh sorry, we can't cover you.

Then you go bankrupt trying to stay alive, and eventually when you're on welfare, THEN you can get some form of government assistance. Of course you can't afford the drugs you need, so now you die.

On a side note, I know a guy in the States who lives in a very middle class area and within the last 2 years, 3 guys on his block had to sell their houses. Why? Because the old guys that worked their whole lives to buy their houses had heart attacks- and astronomical health bills.

Death Panels. Man, and that broad wanted to be Vice President?

-istp

[JakeYYZ]

What Sarah Palin knows and you apparently don't know is that Pres. Obama's "Special Advisor for health Policy" is Ezekiel J. Emanual, who co- author a paper regarding "the complete lives system". It basically says when resources are "scarce", health care will be allocated preferentially to those above the age of 15 and under the age of 40. The definition of "scarce resources" is undefined. Could scarce resources mean lack of or under funding of a government run program?
Google The Complete Lives System. Then you may not be laughing.
Rockie, where did you get this “45 million Americans with no health coverage at all”?
incorrect...it’s closer to 18 million.
“There will be only one way to make this work: Impose an individual mandate. Force the 18 million Americans between 18 and 34 who (often quite rationally) forgo health insurance to buy it. This will create a huge new pool of customers who rarely get sick but will be paying premiums every month. And those premiums will subsidize nirvana health insurance for older folks.”
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... on/columns

[Rockie]

Rockie, where did you get this “45 million Americans with no health coverage at all”?
incorrect...it’s closer to 18 million.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=628
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

There are many more references supporting 45 million or more. Plus Obama said so himself in a recent speech from Mexico City. Of course that doesn't include the millions more who will lose their coverage the first time they are in an accident or contract a long term disease.

I don't know where you get your information Jake, but it's completely wrong. No wait...I do know. It's from the same place Palin and all the other covered or wealthy people get it.

[Icebound]

...

Best and most recennt numbers are probably here:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf


...

[Rockie]

Thanks Icebound. The relevant information is on page 23. The three year average of uninsured Americans from 2005-2007 is 45,822,000, which is an increase from the previous two year averages.

[Invertago]

when resources are "scarce", health care will be allocated preferentially to those above the age of 15 and under the age of 40.

I'd be willing to try that out for 10 years, to see how it works, but then we should change it to something better to the +40 crowd just to be fair

[Dex]

She loves America so much she QUIT her job as governer mid term; without warning!!! Her "Death Panel" rhetoric will help sell her upcoming book though. What a piece of work!!

[North Shore]

It basically says when resources are "scarce", health care will be allocated preferentially to those above the age of 15 and under the age of 40.

Kinda like triage - where some poor admitting nurse/doctor has to make decisions about who is too well to be treated, and who is too sick to be treated, and who is in the lucky middle group that will get treatment.

[JakeYYZ]

Death Panel? What death panel? I thought there were no death panel provisions in there. Isn’t that what o said in a press conference? Why would they need to take something out that “apparently” wasn’t even in the bill? Hmmm…. fishy

Thu Aug 13, 1:55 pm ET
WASHINGTON - Key senators are excluding a provision on end-of-life care from health overhaul legislation after language in a House bill caused a furor.

Senator . Grassley of Iowa, top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a statement Thursday that the provision had been dropped from consideration because it could be misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly.

A health care bill passed by three House committees allows Medicare to reimburse doctors for voluntary counselling sessions about end-of-life decisions. But critics have claimed the provision could lead to death panels and euthanasia for seniors.

Oh yeah, sure, every lefty knows, in their national socialist utopia, their politicians and government bureaucrats would never misrepresent or implement anything incorrectly...

[Sheila]

Do insured people have end-of-life counselling now?

[Rockie]

HMO's to 45 million currently uninsured Americans, and anybody who is in an accident, contracts a long term illness or loses their job.

"tough shit, good luck with that illness"

How's that for end of life councelling Jake? They're doing a bang up job aren't they?

[crazy_aviator]

I think universal health care in North America should be free with extra service and incentives for the obese, sedentary, lazy, criminals, junk food eaters, druggies and the simply stupid,, to continue to be more and more foolish , so as to generate more health care needs and therefore more employment and bigger hospitals , providing more employment . Foolish People arent we

[. ._]

My take on the whole deal is that all huge organizations are monumentally inefficient.

This adds to cost.

So you have all of these sick people and they have to get fixed up by a government hospital or a private hospital.

The government hospital is inefficient. The private hospital is inefficient. (because they're both big)

The difference is, that the private system takes another 2-3 percent in profit for the shareholders. The public system doesn't take that.

So the public system is just as inefficient as the private, but the cost is 2-3 percent less, because there is no profit for shareholders involved.

I'm for efficiency.

Solidarity, brothers!

-istp

[JakeYYZ]

She loves America so much she QUIT her job as governer mid term; without warning!!! Her "Death Panel" rhetoric will help sell her upcoming book though. What a piece of work!!

She freaking tweeted, (something that probably at least 80% of the population has either never heard of, never seen or both), and changed the national dialogue so much that it required responses from the White House, attacks from 3 broadcast networks, 2 cable networks, AvCanada’s s resident lefties and an act of fecking Congress for the Democrats to try to recover.

She sure is stupid. Not smart like you.

[Dex]

She loves America so much she QUIT her job as governer mid term; without warning!!! Her "Death Panel" rhetoric will help sell her upcoming book though. What a piece of work!!

She freaking tweeted, (something that probably at least 80% of the population has either never heard of, never seen or both), and changed the national dialogue so much that it required responses from the White House, attacks from 3 broadcast networks, 2 cable networks, AvCanada’s s resident lefties and an act of fecking Congress for the Democrats to try to recover.

She sure is stupid. Not smart like you.

LOL!!! She jumped on the wave of "anti Obama health care reform" with "Death Panel" Rhetoric!! Lots of money flowing against any change to the status-quo. But it doesn't change the fact that she QUIT HER JOB MID TERM AND WITHOUT REASON!!!!! But it must be ok with you cause "she freaking tweeted" O.....M.....G!!!!

[Rockie]

She loves America so much she QUIT her job as governer mid term; without warning!!! Her "Death Panel" rhetoric will help sell her upcoming book though. What a piece of work!!

She freaking tweeted, (something that probably at least 80% of the population has either never heard of, never seen or both), and changed the national dialogue so much that it required responses from the White House, attacks from 3 broadcast networks, 2 cable networks, AvCanada’s s resident lefties and an act of fecking Congress for the Democrats to try to recover.

She sure is stupid. Not smart like you.

Ah yes. Death panels. Openly armed people at a Presidential event carrying placards promoting assassination and bloodshed. Prominent right wing talking heads incessently comparing Obama to Hitler, and the Democratic party to Nazi Socialism.

Gee Jake, do you think it might be the outrageously extreme lies and criminal fear mongering that are getting the attention rather than Palin's intellect?

And to think you guys had the nerve to say Palin was unfairly treated.

Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin should all be locked up in the interest of national security as a grave threat to public safety and a danger to the United States.

[2R]

The Deal is done.The AMA(Doctors) are in favour of health reform.So it will happen soon.I would guess that the symbiotic relationship between the most expensive health system in the world and its most expensive legal system is getting a divorce.
In a system well past morale bankruptcy,both sides are blaming each other for the outrageous excess's driving the worlds "best system" towards economic bankruptcy.HMO's Vs Ambulance chasers.Tort reform is probably what got the doctors onside.
Some poorly educated people confuse Socialized medicine with Socialism.It is not Socialism.It is the mark of decency in a country,to have Social Responsibilty for its citizens.
We put criminals behind bars to protect the citizens from the malice of criminals,We provide education to the citizens so they can be as productive and enlightened as they can be.Why not Health Care ?
It would seem that the Americans are coming to realize that Britain was right to introduce a National Health Service in 1947.It has taken the Americans doctors sixty years to catch up with the morale decency of the British system.

[Phaedrus]

Perhaps this is where the whole meme originated:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magaz ... f=magazine

THE PRESIDENT: I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

NYT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

[bmc]

I wonder how long before this story morphs into gas chambers for sick people.

[ottawa,kan]

I think there is plenty of mis information about health care in both our countires. I met a woman in Kingston one year who had moved there from Alberta a a couple of years ago, and still couldn't get an appointment with an OB/Gyn for a pap smear. We may have to pay for our health insurance, instead of getting it free from some government dole, but when I get sick, I can call up and see the doctor the same day. If I need a heart stress test, I can get one next week. Same with a colonoscopy. I pay about $600 per month for me, my wife and my kid. Expensive? I guess. About what a new 4-door 4WD Ford 3/4 ton pick up would be per month. Payment, not taxes and insurance too. So I have health insurance and and a ten year old truck. Any child from a family who makes less than 200% of poverty level gets absolutely free health care from the State of Kansas. Also true in all the other states, even more generous in some. And the 45 million number is absolute nonsense. It includes all the people covered under the Schiff program who are covered by the state. And it includes probably 8 or 9 million illegals, who certainly deserve health care, but not necessarily from my country. After all, I'm not eligible in yours. Canada rations health care without "death panels" They ration it by making it unavailable. And Great Britain does have pretty strict age limit on all kinds of health services. Try getting a pacemaker in England at age 80. Try getting any service in Great Britain without waiting.

[niss]

I think there is plenty of mis information about health care in both our countires. I met a woman in Kingston one year who had moved there from Alberta a a couple of years ago, and still couldn't get an appointment with an OB/Gyn for a pap smear. We may have to pay for our health insurance, instead of getting it free from some government dole, but when I get sick, I can call up and see the doctor the same day. If I need a heart stress test, I can get one next week. Same with a colonoscopy. I pay about $600 per month for me, my wife and my kid. Expensive? I guess. About what a new 4-door 4WD Ford 3/4 ton pick up would be per month. Payment, not taxes and insurance too. So I have health insurance and and a ten year old truck. Any child from a family who makes less than 200% of poverty level gets absolutely free health care from the State of Kansas. Also true in all the other states, even more generous in some. And the 45 million number is absolute nonsense. It includes all the people covered under the Schiff program who are covered by the state. And it includes probably 8 or 9 million illegals, who certainly deserve health care, but not necessarily from my country. After all, I'm not eligible in yours. Canada rations health care without "death panels" They ration it by making it unavailable. And Great Britain does have pretty strict age limit on all kinds of health services. Try getting a pacemaker in England at age 80. Try getting any service in Great Britain without waiting.

My fiance gets her pap with her regular checkup from her Dr. Granted many are here without family doctors but health care is available.

When I dropped the 'ped I was in ER at 1900, in Trauma at 1930, Xrays and Preop @ 2030 Under the knife at 2130. I had to stay in pediatrics because there were no beds available in the big-boy ward, so they gave me a room to myself no charge, meds in the hospital were free, no charge for the operation or anything, and I had no insurance premiums so there were no rates to go up. I do have a plan through work that covered 80% of my perscriptions after the hospital and half of the fancy casts (I wanted the waterproof kind).

I gladly pay almost 1/3 of my paycheque to taxes if this is what I and every other Canadian enjoys. I refuse to live in an environment where my health care is trusted to a corporation whos primary concern is profit. Who needs to find out that their cancer or some other disease was laying dormant for years and the insurance company won't cover it now because it is a previous condition?

No thank you. With most of the western world having Universal healthcare, how can 1 country still argue theirs is the right way?

[2R]

600 a month is not as bad as getting robbed every pay day ,we pay way more than a third in taxes
-Provincial income tax
-Federal income tax
-Employment insurance deductions
-Canada Pension Plan
And what your are left with is subject to all kinds of Taxes
-Land Taxes
-Water Taxes
-GST federal sales tax
-PST provincial sales tax
-Water and Sewer taxes
-Gas Tax
-Aircraft fuel taxes ( Of which very little ends up supporting aviation)
-Tobacco tax
-Green Tax (Campbells Olympic fund)
-Death tax
and the cruelest tax of all "Beer tax"


Does not matter how much money you send to ANY government those guys sit up at nights thinking of new ways of spending your money before you can earn it.And then the Honourable bastards want you to thank them for spending your money on their pet projects.
Any health care improvements and reform is just another tax grab .Cause you know who is gonna pay through some clever propaganda,as you will be educated to agree that it is necessary.

[spartacus]

I met a woman in Kingston one year who had moved there from Alberta a a couple of years ago, and still couldn't get an appointment with an OB/Gyn for a pap smear.

You don't need to see an OB/GYN for that, so she was just being stupid. Any GP can do that. And you can probably get in to see said GP within a week or so at the worst. So yeah, that's wrong.