Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

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Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Widow »

Sympathies to the family.
Pilot had crashed airplane twice before
Posted By DANIEL PEARCE, Simcoe Reformer
Updated 1 day ago


A Courtland man who died when his single-engine plane went down in a cornfield Wednesday had crashed two other times in the past seven years, says a federal investigator.

Alvin Foster flipped over into a ploughed field during a landing in 2002 and crashed into trees during a failed takeoff in 2007, said Don Enns, Ontario regional manager of air investigations for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada.

In both cases, the planes received "substantial damage" and in the 2007 incident Foster was "seriously injured," said reports about the incidents posted on a Transport Canada website.

On Wednesday morning, Foster, who was in his early 80s, took off from his own private airfield in Courtland, a village between Simcoe and Tillsonburg, and never returned.

Family contacted police hours later who in turn sent out a search and rescue plane. Foster's plane was found in a cornfield behind Courtland's community centre.

Enns said the exact cause of the crash is unknown but it appears as if Foster lost control of the craft.

"One thing I can tell you is that it was nose down and right wing down. That's indicative of a loss of control. What's going on now is that we are trying to determine what caused him to lose control of his aircraft."

An inspection of the wreckage has determined that the plane's controls were "functional," said Enns. "We found no faults whatsoever."

Two investigators at the scene will bring the engine and the control panel to the agency's Richmond Hill office for further study. Witnesses have been interviewed and a post mortem is scheduled for Friday morning in Hamilton.

Investigators are also looking into weather conditions at the time, added Enns.

A neighbour of Foster's, Ozzie VanHaverbeke, said he watched Foster take off at about 7:30 a.m. into a dense layer of fog that was hanging just over the tree tops.

VanHaverbeke, 78, said Foster flew so low over his property that it caused the pigeons he keeps, and had just let out, to "scatter."

The plane, he said, flew southward over the village, disappearing into the fog. VanHaverbeke said he heard Foster's engine throttle down, stop for three or four seconds, then throttle up again.

"Five, six, seven, eight seconds later the engine stopped again," he said.

VanHaverbeke said he suspects Foster was banking and trying to get back to the airfield.

"He may not have got above the fog," said VanHaverbeke, who helped pull Foster from his plane following the 2007 crash.

"We don't know how thick it was."
http://www.simcoereformer.ca/ArticleDis ... ?e=1700114
CADORS Number: 2009O1715 Reporting Region: Ontario

Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2009/08/12
Occurrence Time: 1230 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 1 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: Aerodrome Name:
Occurrence Location: private airstrip near Courtland (east of Tillsonburg) Province: Ontario
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 110141-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 3 TSB Occurrence No.: A09O0171
Event InformationCollision with terrain
ELT/SAR/comm search
Aircraft InformationFlight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: CESSNA Model: 150J
Year Built: 1969 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: TELEDYNE CONTINENTAL Engine Model: O-200-A
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Takeoff Damage: Destroyed
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Detail InformationUser Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2009/08/13
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: NAV CANADA staff at London F.I.C. received a telephone call from J.R.C.C. Trenton staff regarding an overdue aircraft that had been reported by a responsible person. While a communications search was underway, J.R.C.C. Trenton staff called back to report that the accident site had been located. It was reported that the privately-registered Cessna 150J aircraft had departed a private airstrip around 1200Z and is believed to have crashed shortly thereafter. The aircraft was reported overdue with a search commencing at 1645Z. The aircraft was located at 42º50'N 080º37'W (southeast of London, east of Ingersoll). There was one (1) S.O.B. who was fatally injured.

User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2009/08/13
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE Supplemental information received from J.R.C.C. Trenton [2009/08/13]: J.R.C.C. Trenton staff reported that the Ontario Provincial Police (O.P.P.) were reporting an overdue Cessna 150 aircraft. J.R.C.C. Trenton staff tasked a SAR Hercules aircraft (RESCUE306), a Griffon helicopter (RESCUE422) and CASARA. The Hercules crew located the aircraft near Courtland, ON (42º50'42"N 080º37'44"W) shortly after arriving on scene. SARTechs jumped and confirmed that the lone pilot was fatally injured. O.P.P. and emergency medical services responded. The case was turned over to the O.P.P. No further action required; case closed. Timings: Griffon helicopter (RESCUE422) - 3.4 hours, Hercules aircraft (RESCUE306) - 2.4 hours; CASARA ON/10/AC1 - 0.7; Griffon helicopter (RESCUE491) - 0.2 hours.

User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2009/08/14
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE Supplemental information received from T.S.B. Initial Notification [#A09O0171]: The Cessna 150J aircraft departed from the pilot's private airstrip and was later reported overdue when it had not returned. A search was commenced by J.R.C.C. staff and the aircraft was located in a nearby corn field. The aircraft had struck the ground in a steep nose down and right wing low attitude. The aircraft was destroyed by the impact and pilot received fatal injuries. A Minister's Observer has been appointed for this Class 3 investigation.
Along with this accident (in which the pilot had also, apparently, survived two previous accidents) - viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56809&hilit=muskoka - I can't help but wonder if both age and record are going to become highlights of the TSB findings and recommendations.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Doc »

Don't care who I piss off with this remark.


WHAT is a guy in his "early 80's" doing at the control of an aircraft???
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

We all age at a different rate and our flying skills will decay at a different rate.

Like Clunk said some of us will pull the pin when we get to the stage we are unsafe to fly and for some of us that time has not yet come.

Bob Hoover was every bit as smooth in his early eighties as he was in his younger years and he was still flying in the airshow circuit well into his eighties.

I retired from flying for a living at age seventy only because I wanted to see how the rest of humanity lives and I have not regretted it for a heartbeat.

I am planning on flying with a flight instructor this coming week because an insurance company wants a letter from an instructor stating I can still fly safely their reason being I am past the age of seventy.....I mentioned that I still held an unrestricted air display authority in Europe when I turned seventy and I really cant see any difference in my flying now than almost four years ago, however they want the letter so I will go do the check ride.

I'll let you all know how it goes...

P.S. :

The instructor is a regular here. :mrgreen:
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Hedley »

WHAT is a guy in his "early 80's" doing at the control of an aircraft???
I know some guys in their 20's who shouldn't be flying.
I don't care who I piss off with that remark, either.

Everyone ages at different rates. You probably didn't
hear about the 81 year old Nascar race car driver:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/m ... le1224189/

You think you could drive better than him?
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by flyinthebug »

Two gentlemen I remember flying into their 80`s .. Frank Bayne YQT and Tony Slugoski YXE(sp?).. both flew into their 80s and Tony S was still doing rides for TC when he was 81. I dont know what became of either though? Tony S was back in 02 the last time I saw him. Frank Bayne did my PPL ride in 94 and was pushing 80 then!

Those two are the exception to the rule because most of us should hang it up before our 80th. Cat flew to 70 and thats a good "jumping off" point IMHO.

My condolences to the family.

Fly safe all.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by MichaelP »

This is a subject that most people especially older people are passionate about.
But I am firmly on the side of caution when it comes to flying over the age of 70 for most people, and definately for those of 80 or more.

It is fine for a person to die flying in his old age, alone and in the backwoods where nobody else is hurt, but flying around built up areas where people can be easily hurt is something else.

My own experience has been that 80 year old pilots, while they should be respected for who they are, they should have more regular medicals (as they do for driving licences in many places), and they should consider taking a safety pilot along.

Aging is an unfortunate fact of life.
I hope that I don't have the arrogance of many I have known, "damn it at 80 I'm as good as I was at 20, and the doctor just gave me two years more"... The sudden failure of a bodily item such as heart or brain or any number of other things that fail with age is not easily anticipated.

Two instances of which I have experienced... An old chap came into the circuit from overhead Delta Airpark at less than 1,000 feet in a twin.
We were just turning crosswind when I saw him and stopped the turn rather than have a close encounter or worse.
On the ground I talked to him about it and he was completely unaware.
The man was a veteran, and should be respected as such, but should he have been flying?
He'd had an accident at his own airport... There were a series of indications that something should be done.
He crashed into an apartment building....

Another veteran of the same age, was a CF100 pilot, and he flew his homebuilt very well.
I had to ride along with him for most of the 25 hours fly-off time in his aeroplane because he was deaf.
My brother made an amplifier for his headset that turned loud to super loud!
This chap was an excellent pilot, and most often he would take another pilot along.
But age catches up, he dislocated his shoulder and I took a potential buyer up in the aeroplane for him. The aeroplane was sold and a day or two later the old chap had a stroke.
He was good humoured about it, and I'm glad to report that except for some weakness on one side he still has his faculties.
But his flying days are over, he had one last hurrah and departed from piloting gracefully.

Yes, there are many instances of younger pilots coming up for criticism, but in those final years of life we owe it to everyone else to either take safety pilots with us, or to stop flying rather than bring aviation once again into disrepute taking someone innocent with us on our final flight.

I am sorry if this point of view offends anyone.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Doc »

Circumstances alter cases. For sure. But, I'm willing to bet that most 80 year old Cessna 150 drivers were never, Clunk Drivers, Cat Drivers, Bob Hoovers, . Yeagers......or older TC inspectors.
When we can no longer handle 20 knots off the port bow, it's time to give it up.
Cheers
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Cat flew to 70 and thats a good "jumping off" point IMHO.
For me it had two plusses, I was still flying in the air show business and able to pass the flight test in Europe to hold the license so when I quit I was still competent and had never had an accident.

So that was plus number one.

The second plus is I wanted to see what it would be like just doing whatever I felt like every day while I still have my health and the money to enjoy what ever years I have left before I die and go to hell.

When the insurance company told me about their requirement for a check ride after the age of seventy I have no problem with that as I have done millions of check rides during my career so it is no big deal.

Reading some of the comments that have been made here got me to thinking......should I quit flying because I am to old?
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

The sudden failure of a bodily item such as heart or brain or any number of other things that fail with age is not easily anticipated.
Hmmm...hmmmmmm......

Where do we draw the line with this risk of failure issue?

Seems to me that people have these failures at any age, furthermore why in @#$! am I going to a aviation medical doctor every six months if the results are useless?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Just another canuck »

I seem to recall an elderly gentleman who crashed a Beaver and a Norseman within a days of each other in the Red Lake area... I think he was in his late 70's when it happened. He hung up the headset after that but maybe he should have done so before the accidents happened.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Old Dog Flying »

I'm 74 and have been required to have a flight test for aircraft insurance. Until 2 years ago I still held a CPL which I let slide to a PPL...voluntarily...I'll hang up my helmet and goggles when the time comes and on my terms not on those of some twit working in an office somewhere. I know quite a few people in their mid 80s who are still flying, in good physical shape and more than capable pilots.

I do worry about the over-weight pea-brain with an aircraft full of digital toys who can't see traffic within 100 feet of them.

Did I mention that I have a very lovely co-pilot?
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by flyinthebug »

... I think thats the same question as MichealP is asking.. at what point do we draw the line? You at 70, are like most people at 45! You are tenacious and I believe you should still fly if you enjoy it.. BUT at 70+ years of age, perhaps taking some extra precautions isnt such a bad idea?

What id like to see is once you reach age 65, that you should then have a medical perhaps 4 times a year rather then two if you wish to still fly commercially. Something to that affect.
I suspect the insurance company requires your ride Cat just as a CYA kinda thing. It does make some form of sense though from a business perspective.

., I dont know where the line is or should be. I believe you are hoovering very close to it on either side thou lol ;) I say with respect as MichealP did so eloquently above.. that at your age.. even being in good health.. the "risks" we speak of do increase dramatically. If you adjust your flying accordingly and use the tools available to you, there is no reason you could not fly another 10 years ..

Just my Sat pm thoughts.

Fly safe all.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

And to think that I was actually considering doing some more flight training on floats.

Sure as hell as soon as the prospective students find out how old I am they wouldn't want to risk their lives flying with me. :prayer:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »


., I dont know where the line is or should be. I believe you are hoovering very close to it on either side thou lol ;) I say with respect as MichealP did so eloquently above.. that at your age.. even being in good health.. the "risks" we speak of do increase dramatically. If you adjust your flying accordingly and use the tools available to you, there is no reason you could not fly another 10 years ..
I am well aware of the risks associated with advancing years flyinthebug and I am not disagreeing with MichaelP or anyone else in the general context of the risks, as to the insurance check ride having worked closely with the insurance underwriters I fully agree with their position.....

.......however once I demonstrate that I am still proficient and seem to have most of my marbles and feel that I am safe then I see nothing wrong with flying within my limits...just like I have done for the last fifty six years.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

When considering the safety aspect of flying in your later years I would submit that flying as an instructor offering such services as sea plane instruction and all the many skills that are needed in flying commercial sea plane operations reduces the risk factor should one become incapacitated in flight.

The pilots you are teaching are licensed already and if you die during the flight sooner or later your student will discover you are dead and will be quite capable of completing the flight, hell they can even log that part of the flight as PIC. :mrgreen:

So @#$! it when I feel I'm finally losing my edge all my flights will be instructing. :smt040
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Inverted2 »

I just saw this accident on the news the other day, and it looks like he hit the corn field at a really steep angle - nearly vertical. It obviously wasn't an engine failure, you can glide a 150 down anywhere and at least walk away from it. This guy was smushed into the plane or the other way around! Regardless of age, 20 or 80, if you take off in adverse weather when you plane or your skills are not up to it, you are just going to be star of another TC report.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Old Dog Flying »

Then there was the 24 year old who flew into Langley in a Seneca to get his commercial medical renewed...only to have his heart stop for close to a minute while being examined. Needless to say it can happen to anyone at any time. The guy survived but never flew again.

Or the guy in YQR who had his commercial medical renewed including an ECG, walked out of the medical bldg and had a massive heart attack on the sidewalk. He did not survive.

I would be more afraid of the 20 something driving while totally stoned on nose candy than a capable pilot in his later years. The fact that the accident fatality was 80 years old, flying into weather beyond his capability does not surprise me but then again I've known instructors who have done the same thing...the old I'll go have a look at the weather syndrome. Bad judgement is not a symptom of old age, it can happen at any time.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by albertdesalvo »

. . wrote:The pilots you are teaching are licensed already and if you die during the flight sooner or later your student will discover you are dead and will be quite capable of completing the flight, hell they can even log that part of the flight as PIC. :mrgreen: So @#$! it when I feel I'm finally losing my edge all my flights will be instructing. :smt040
Hee! That one made my day! :rolleyes:
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Hee! That one made my day! :rolleyes:
Yeh, without a sense of humor life would be rather boring. :mrgreen:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by albertdesalvo »

. . wrote:Yeh, without a sense of humor life would be rather boring. :mrgreen:
It comes in real handy when contemplating one's own mortality. All I know is, if there's hell below, we're all gonna go. 8)
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by vamosalaplaya »

Ok. I will be very honnest here. You probably won' t like it.

Firstly dignity. Is the old fellow burried yet? Is the investigation finished? Give the old man a rest!

Secondly relativism. How many young pilots crashed the same week? And how many low timer crashed?

Thirdly speculation. He crashed twice before. What are the reasons? Engine failure, other? Do you know?

Forthly and lastly voyeurism. In the pilot community, we loooove making comments on others misfortune. We say we can learn from it... Maybe. But we are at the edge of good behaviour and respect.

I told you, you won' t like it.

I hope my post will open you eyes more than upset you.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Hedley »

Many pilot would benefit from a little bit more
education. On this particular subject, some mathematics
and statistics would probably come in handy.

NEWSFLASH: not everyone is the same.

I know in egalitarian, socialist Canada this fact will
be resisted, but it's true. Not everyone is identical
because their genetics and experiences differ.

Let's say we take 1,000 people and measure their
height, or weight. Socialists avert your eyes for a
moment, because not everyone will have the same
numbers.

If you plot enough data, you will get a bell-shaped
curve with lump in the middle, called a "normal
distribution". You can see that there will be a
value in the middle, with half of the people less
than the middle, and half of the people more than
the middle.

Not everyone has the middle (average, media, mean)
value, ok? That's another lesson.

Now, you can calculate a value called sigma or
standard deviation. 95% of the distribution will
be contained within 2 sigma above and below
the center.

This means that 2.5% of the population will be
considerably different than the center value. In
the case of aging, 2.5% of the population will
age quite rapidly, and 2.5% of the population
will age quite slowly.

Get used to it. Not everyone is the same.

I seem to recall that an Air Canada co-pilot
died in the saddle a year or two back - at
the age of THIRTY-NINE. Guess which of
the 2.5% he was in?

Now, for ultimate safety, I guess we should
have all pilots quit flying at 35 - it's hard
to argue with that, because if he was flying
a King Air single pilot in Northern Ontario,
his pax would have been in for a world of
hurt after he died at the controls.

Other pilot are still healthy in the 70's and
yes, even 80's - guess which 2.5% of the
population those guys are in?

As a last thought, I will mention the data
point of Scott Crossfield, a famous fighter
pilot who was the first man to fly mach 2,
back in the dangerous days of the in1950's.

Now, he recently died in an aircraft accident,
as the pilot and sole occupant at the age of
84.

Ah ha! More evidence that old people shouldn't
fly airplanes, you say!

Well, maybe. But take a look at what the accident
report says:
The NTSB has blamed Scott Crossfield's death on his own failure to obtain updated en route weather information, and on air traffic controllers for not giving him adverse weather avoidance assistance.

The former civilian test pilot took off in his Cessna 210A on April 19, 2006, from Prattville/Grouby Field Airport in Prattville, Ala., and was en route to Manassas, Va., on an IFR flight plan. Crossfield encountered severe embedded thunderstorms and received a clearance to deviate, but it was too late. The airplane disappeared from radar 30 seconds after he initiated the turn. The wreckage was found in the mountains near Ludville, Georgia.
Now, everyone here knows that young pilots
NEVER encounter problems with thunderstorms :roll:
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by vamosalaplaya »

I know in egalitarian, socialist Canada this fact will
be resisted, but it's true. Not everyone is identical
because their genetics and experiences differ.
You have a real misconception of socialism.
It is exactly the opposite.
Socialism is in fact when you aknowledge and admit everybody is different.
Therefore to take into account this fact socialism (as it is understood in Norway, France, Sweden, Finland and the like...) try to give equal access to health care, university, quality food.

I beleive you use socialism as a scarecrow because you mix up socialism with nationalist-capitalist countries.

The nationalist-capitalist countries can be easily identified:

-they don' t hesitate to increase taxes to make propaganda like sending cosmonaut (taikonaut or astronaut depending on the country) in space for example.

-the media an movie industry is close to different lobbies, itself close to the power.

-they use a fair amount of what they ask to the taxpayers for the army (army which is part of the propaganda effort).

-the official mean of success is making money, whatever how.

-everbody is on their own, private school are more efficient than public ones...

-they all have a religion, an image, a constitution, a president to love (nationalism).

Those main countries are Russia, China, Usa. Don' t mix them up with socialism.

Otherwise quite agree with the remaining of your post.
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by MichaelP »

encountered severe embedded thunderstorms
I don't think many accidents are entirely the result of what the investigators report.

We are human beings and are highly fallible. Who knows what was going through the mind of the pilot before an accident, what did the pilot eat, did he have stomach ache or a headache, had there been an argument, was there concern about what he had to do after the flight or even next week.
Pilot Decision Making is the most important factor in a pilot's life and we are all subject to stress from outside the functional operation of an aircraft.

One day I was down really down :( , I'd broken up with a girlfriend... I'd flown to the Goodwood breakfast patrol in a MKV Auster and my closer friends suggested taking someone along.... They need not have worried, if I was suicidal I would not do it in an aeroplane, in something that has kept me alive for so long and given me much joy.
But there's the thing...
We should look after each other and take careful action if we see someone not quite fit to fly. We may save many lives this way.

Canada is the loneliest country I have ever lived in, it is a place where not too many people really care enough about others, we all work, we live in our metal shells of cars, many watch the television, we seldom interact on a deeper level.

I never flew so many solo hours until I came here, there was almost always someone to share a flight with in England.
Yesterday I flew the Chipmunk on my own... How many people would love a ride in a Chipmunk? How many people have the time?

Perhaps if people were more friendly in the true sense... Canadians are known for their friendliness, but this IMHO does not go so deep.... [This forum is a bit of an indicator here 8) ]. Perhaps we'd have more older pilots sharing their flying with other pilots then it would be safer.

I like to see older pilots keep their flying skill and enjoy flying until the day they die, but let's share the experience more as we get older.
Dying in an aeroplane is alright and probably hoped for by many, but let's not hurt anyone else.
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Strega
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Re: Pilot had crashed twice before (Aug. 14th fatality)

Post by Strega »

Michael, I know what you mean about no one in Canada wanting to come flying when there is an empty seat available..

about 7 years ago, I sold plane I had and its new home was in Quebec, so I called up the flight school nearby, and offered to take someone on a long IFR crosscountry,,, well the only person that wanted to come was the stuck up instructer that demanded that he was the pic in order to log some ME time..... I flew the trip solo...
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Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
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