New student procedures

[fleet16b]

Recently , a friend of mine came to me with a question.
She has decided to enroll her son in flight training
Upon talking with the school, she was told that the first 16 -17 lessons would consist of
1 hr ground briefing and 1 hr flight instruction minimum per lesson.
While it has been years since I was a student and things do change, the mandatory 1 hr G.B. seems a bit extreme to me. I seem to recall in my training days that G.B;s did not take an hour on top of each flight. Why am I feeling money grab ?
Then again maybe I amwrong and this is now the norm for lessons.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks in advanced

[chipmunk]

Holy crap - one hour ground briefing???

In a two hour slot with a newer student, I could fit in a simple and fast (15 minutes max) PGI preparatory ground instruction, teach and/or supervise a walk-around, get in at least an hour's flight time, then do a 5 minute debrief and fill out paperwork.

Maybe "they" were talking about what would be charged? (i.e. instructor time for an hour on the ground - including the ground brief, walkaround, and debrief and then the instructor plus aircraft time for the hours' flight?)

[Tango01]

Hi

The school must provide the student an outline of the training.

The school must also ensure that the student is given all the relevant PGI (Preparatory Ground Instruction) before a new training exercise is introduced. As well, every single flight (dual or solo) has to be briefed (pre-flight briefing which may be combined with the PGI) and a post-flight briefing given to the student at the end of the flight to review strengths, weaknesses, suggestions for improvement, etc.

Having a fixed mandatory PGI/Flight time of 1.0 per flight is strictly a school policy, since PGI's do not necessarily need to take that long, or in some cases, for students who don't prepare ahead of time, or slow learners, they make even take longer.

I would suggest to your friend to talk to the school about this issue and see if they will be flexible with the times, if not, look for another FTU.

[buggy_boy]

When I was doing my flight training there was some turnover with instructors. I think I had 5 different ones just for my PPL. My first instructor was a fan of really long ground briefings, going through every single point in the manual. I was very surprised when the next instructor flew through the ground briefing and wanted me to have a more hands on experience in the air. The other ones were similar, not wanting to spend a lot of time on the ground when it could be better spent in the air.
Looking back the one who did the long ground briefings was a somewhat new instructor so I'm sure he just wanted to be thorough.

[flyingdan]

I had an instructor that was fond of long G.B.'s as well. I did enjoy them since he usually hit on things I hadn't considered (i.e. let's do a weight & balance and learn to figure out if the minimum fuel we need for the spins lesson is less than the maximum we're allowed by the W&B). At times they were a bit too long (as in "I get it already, 100 RPM ~ 5 knot change in IAS").

I'm not an instructor but when (if) I become one, I'd like to have the GB as a pre-flight quiz for the student. (S)He's supposed to be preparing so I'd let him/her tell me about the lesson and I'd ask questions to fill in the gaps. I don't know if this is the "right" way to do it, but it's the way I'd like my GB's to be done now.

[Hedley]

Every student is different, and will require different
amounts of ground briefing.

Money grab.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'll say that when people are inquiring about lessons the above sounds about right when they're budgeting their time - that there will be about an hour on the ground for each hour in the air. Each student and lesson will be different I remind them, so the hour and hour is only for ballpark figuring say when booking flights on the schedule. That hour on the ground keep in mind, isn't just GB time, but walkaround time, sign out time and last nervous pee time. The lesson and the student often govern the ammount of time spent actually briefing about the lesson.

Parents for that matter often inquire about how long the lesson is for since they're often giving a ride to Johnny or Suzy to and from the flight. If they're like a lot of parents of the younger students these days, they're probably booking the flight, paying for the flight, and far more interested in the flight...

If your friend who is concerned about her son's flight training, she should quiz her son herself about what goes on each flight, and compare it to the bill.

[Louis]

The other ones were similar, not wanting to spend a lot of time on the ground when it could be better spent in the air.
Looking back the one who did the long ground briefings was a somewhat new instructor so I'm sure he just wanted to be thorough.

Beware: time in the air for instructors is more valuable than time on the ground. Because time in the air equals hard PIC time in the logbook. So while you should give the benefit of the doubt to your instructor 'til proof of the contrary, I find it unwise to rush through ground instruction.

While the length of ground briefings is certainly something that can be discussed and bound to vary for each individual student and lesson, I found that some schools' "culture" was to keep the PGIs short, too short in my opinion. A preparatory ground instruction sessions is not to be confused with a pre-flight briefing.

[trampbike]

For my PPL and night, I was charged a total of only 1h of briefing, and it was for the navigation preparation before the first long XC...

[hairdo]

I would hope that the school is just giving a ballpark area, since some students take more time, and others less. It usually depends on how focused and prepared they are. But to say it is mandatory, that sounds more like money grab. Those numbers should be flexible to fit the student.

The big question to me is, why has your friend decided to enroll her son in flight training, and why is she asking the questions that her son should be asking? Honestly, how many people are pushed into flight training because mommy and daddy said so?

[767]

I agree with most of what shiny side up described.

At the beginning of flight training, I give a handout to my students that lists how much each PGI is going to cost them. The cost listed on my handout is the maximum charge. If the pgi takes less time than listed, then i deduct that time from the bill. Average pgi bills about 0.5. The long ones, like ex 23 (cross country planning) is about 1.5, but once again, if it takes less than that, the time is deducted. If the time goes over what I listed, I usually give them a break and dont charge over, unless the student really needs extra extra help. Like most said, different students need different amount of time.

[fleet16b]

The big question to me is, why has your friend decided to enroll her son in flight training, and why is she asking the questions that her son should be asking? Honestly, how many people are pushed into flight training because mommy and daddy said so?

Wow ,incredible !!! back up a minute, you are being a classic example of one of the problems with Forums. Stop reading things into what has been said.That is not the case at all.
Maybe try focussing on the question at hand.
Would you just drop your 16 yr old off at a Flight School and let him deal with it?
I don't think so.

[Shiny Side Up]

Would you just drop your 16 yr old off at a Flight School and let him deal with it?
I don't think so.

In all honesty fleet16b, the ones who succeed in a reasonable ammount of time are the ones that can be dropped off, who are responsible for themselves at this point. If your sixteen year old can't be dropped off by this point in time, and isn't asking the questions, then you're setting yourself up to get soaked by your flight school, or soaked by your sixteen year old (seen this happen once - silly parents just handed their child loads of cash - then started wondering why it was costing them so much - until I showed mom the actual bills and had a fight over no shows - mom wised up and followed little Johnny one day found out where the extra cash was going.)

You can't after all hold their hand through it all anymore, so if your child ain't taking any responsibility to make sure they're learning, then don't waste your money on flight school.

[fleet16b]

Well Shiny
I am sure most responsible parents are going to go along for the initial sign up as my friend did.
After all she is paying out the coin and wants to see what the School has to offer.
As for her son, he knows the score - has grown up from day one in aviation , is an aircadet etc

[Shiny Side Up]

Like I said then her best bet if she's concerned is to encourage her son to get the information. One of the best ways to get kids to be responsible though is to make them spend their own money, but what am I saying? I ain't here to raise other people's kids. Trying not to get off on a rant here, but the term "kids" I use loosely as these days it seems to also include those in their twenties. Personally I'm just tired of seeing aviation wasted as an expensive babysitting service, all because some couch potato man-boy is good at Ace Combat 4. I got a fourteen year old who's progressing faster than some of the 16-20 year olds, but then he's the one dragging his Dad out to the airport and not the other way around like the rest. I laughed the othe week when I happened to be at the TC office when a group of shame faced boy-men came trudging out all having failed their CPL written tests... followed by a triumphant girl who was all too happy to tell anyone listening that she had bested the other six and passed. Someone clearly wanted it more.

I hope your friend's son wants it too.

[fleet16b]

Thanks Shiny

He definitely wants it.
Have taken him up for some dual in both the Finch and the Champ and he seems to catch on quite well.However , as I am not an instructor, it's best he start out with proper training.
Flying the Champ make him the fourth generation of him family to fly that actual a/c
Great Grand Father , Grand Father, Mother and now him. You could say it's in the blood.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I started my flying lessons when I turned 16 and yes my mother (or sometimes my father) dropped me off at the airport for every lessons....but that was because I did not have a drivers license

With respect to how much of the PGI I billed.... I used the "Robin Hood" method. Students who didn't do their homework , were lazy and/or a were a pain in the ass got billed from the initial "hello" to the "see you next week". They helpfully subsidized the hardworking motivated students who got charged hardly any ground briefing time.

[canadapilot924]

Trampbike "For my PPL and night, I was charged a total of only 1h of briefing, and it was for the navigation preparation before the first long XC..."

The PGI is an important part of the lesson, and often leads to the flight flowing smoothly without confusion and frustration on the students part. However, some schools refuse to pay instructors for this essential briefing, leading to the poor instructor having to skip on ground briefing, and get the propeller started so they can pay their bills! I know as my previous school adhered to this policy, and it's the student who suffers in the end through insufficient knowledge and confusing flights.

Back to the topic, an hour for EVERY brief is excessive...I spend 2 hours with a student when they start (Attitudes and Mov, S&L, Weight & Balance, walk-around, school rules etc), then maybe 15-20 mins for the average student PGI...any more than that and people kinda switch off.

CP

[niwre]

If you're briefings are taking longer or shorter than you think they should be here are some of questions you have to ask

1. Is the instructor talking on the nice to knows to much?
2. Am I actually doing the work required before the PGI?
3. Historically do I learn things slow, average or quickly (both theory and practically)?

If you answer yes to any of these (which you should) you need to have a one on one with your instructor to ensure the training is meeting needs and expectations.

Some people are too busy wanting to get into the plane but spend next to little time on the theory which burns them in the end (pun intended).

[hairdo]

The big question to me is, why has your friend decided to enroll her son in flight training, and why is she asking the questions that her son should be asking? Honestly, how many people are pushed into flight training because mommy and daddy said so?

Wow ,incredible !!! back up a minute, you are being a classic example of one of the problems with Forums. Stop reading things into what has been said.That is not the case at all.
Maybe try focussing on the question at hand.
Would you just drop your 16 yr old off at a Flight School and let him deal with it?
I don't think so.

Yes, I would! Why not? If they are really interested in aviation and want to be a pilot, then they will have lots of questions to ask. That doesn't mean that they are there to seal the deal. They can be dropped off to explore into the subject of flight training, have a look at the airplanes, do an intro flight, etc. Cut a kid a little slack and let him/her do something themselves for once! They have to do things on their own at some point, why not start now?

Having read your other posts here, it seems that he does have an interest. It is simply really annoying when a student is there because their parents push them into it. They don't want to be there, which makes progression slow and painful for all involved. Flying should not be something to get into unless you (not anyone else) want to.

And how I'm a classic example of the problems with forums, I don't know. But if you read my post, you would see that I did answer your question.

[fleet16b]

The big question to me is, why has your friend decided to enroll her son in flight training, and why is she asking the questions that her son should be asking? Honestly, how many people are pushed into flight training because mommy and daddy said so?

:

And how I'm a classic example of the problems with forums, I don't know. But if you read my post, you would see that I did answer your question.

Hairdo re ; Classic examples:
1)Re-read my question that started this thread.
2)Yes you answered part of my question
3) You also question my friends intentions with her son not knowing any background to the situation etc.
4) Example of problems with forums: people that always try to spin toward the negative side of things, posters that try to look between the lines and read something that is not there, posters that can't seem to focus on the topic at hand, posters that post inuendos based on lack of information and their own uninformed opinions.

I posted a pretty simple question and have had a lot of good aswers and advice.
While I appreciate your advice on the question I posed, myself and everyone else can do without your misguided critique of my friend and how she guides her kid thru life.

Anyway back to the topic.
Thank you everyone for the advice posted, I spoke with a CFI at my local Airport and he pretty much echoed wahts been advised here.

[trampbike]

Trampbike "For my PPL and night, I was charged a total of only 1h of briefing, and it was for the navigation preparation before the first long XC..."

The PGI is an important part of the lesson, and often leads to the flight flowing smoothly without confusion and frustration on the students part. However, some schools refuse to pay instructors for this essential briefing, leading to the poor instructor having to skip on ground briefing, and get the propeller started so they can pay their bills! I know as my previous school adhered to this policy, and it's the student who suffers in the end through insufficient knowledge and confusing flights.

He could have charged me briefing time, but he did not. I guess it has a lot to do with the fact I was doing my ground school with him so we were chatting a lot during the 40 mandatory hours... He never had a lot to comment during or after the flights. Once in a while, he wrote short comments in the PTR and I signed them.

[MDT]

Flight instructors are notorious for under valuing their work. My CFI would pull out what little hair he had left when we failed to charge for ground briefings. This was likely from the feeling of empathy towards the students. We all remember how expensive it was, so in the interest of a brotherly bond, we undercut ourselves. There is nothing wrong with charging for your time if it's spent in meaningful activity (I'm sure that there is a Law of Learning in there). The student can always keep the breifing time down by showing up prepared!

[FlaplessDork]

Flight instructors are notorious for under valuing their work. My CFI would pull out what little hair he had left when we failed to charge for ground briefings. This was likely from the feeling of empathy towards the students. We all remember how expensive it was, so in the interest of a brotherly bond, we undercut ourselves. There is nothing wrong with charging for your time if it's spent in meaningful activity (I'm sure that there is a Law of Learning in there). The student can always keep the breifing time down by showing up prepared!

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