Pilot wins Air Canada retirement case

[Ground Thumper]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story ... nipeg.html

Forced retirement for pilots at 60 is over.

Comments?

[nightbird]

Now I'm gonna have to wait for somebody to die to get a job , maybe if I start poisoning senior pilots things will speed up

[iflyforpie]

The generation that refuses to get old....

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The generation that refuses to get old....

Do you support forced retirement at age 60?

[tripleseven]

I do when retirement age is 60 in the contract.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I do when retirement age is 60 in the contract.

What do you think of this?

On Friday, the Human Rights Commission ruled that Air Canada's policy is unconstitutional.

[North Shore]

Oh, boy, here goes.... Where's the 'eating popcorn' smiley?

[iflyforpie]

The generation that refuses to get old....

Do you support forced retirement at age 60?

No, I don't actually. I just think it is funny that it was never contested to such a degree (and changed in the US) until the 'baby boomers' got up to this age.

[CD]

It's not an "Air Canada policy"... It is in the negotiated ACPA contract:

Air Canada Pilots Respond to Tribunal Decision on Age of Retirement

Aug 28, 2009 17:35 ET

TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - Aug. 28, 2009) - The Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) received a decision today from the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal which would have the effect of denying Air Canada's pilots the right to negotiate a fixed age of retirement with their employer.

"We are disappointed with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's decision to deny Air Canada's pilots the right to negotiate a fixed age of retirement", said ACPA President Captain Andy Wilson.

"The Association has a duty to represent the wishes of the majority of the pilots and we will exercise the legal avenues available to us to ensure that their interests are protected. We are reviewing the details of the decision with our legal representatives to determine the long-term impact on our members and their collective agreement and our options for responding. We will have a more comprehensive statement upon the completion of our study", said Captain Wilson.

The retirement age provided for in ACPA's collective agreement has been in place since the 1950s. Air Canada pilots recently voted by a 3 to 1 margin to uphold the current retirement age of 60.

Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) is the largest professional pilot group in Canada, representing the more than 3,000 pilots who operate Air Canada's mainline fleet.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I do when retirement age is 60 in the contract.

What do you think of this?

On Friday, the Human Rights Commission ruled that Air Canada's policy is unconstitutional.

Two different issues IMHO. Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right. I am opposed to all kinds of discrimination, including age discrimination. However I am also opposed to having the career and earning expectations of younger employees (in any industry) being reduced by a group who want to "double dip". The guys suing to work past 60 had the benefit of career advancement when those ahead of them retired at 60, they should give those behind them the same opportunity.

If this is the way the law is going to go then it should be instituted for new hires. At least that way everybody knows where they stand before they join the company.

Personally I think the tribunal was wrong in this case.The Air Canada pilots and Air Canada collectively bargained for an agreement with an age 60 retirement. The pilots then ratified this agreement. If the majority of pilots want a change in retirement age they can bring it up in contract negotiations next time around. Clearly, however, the majority of AC pilots want age 60! I note that neither ACPA nor presumably Air Canada are happy with the decision. Wasn't Raymond Hall a past ACPA president?

[just curious]

No matter how narrow a negotiator's focus, a brief look at social trends since the 70's would have given them the realization that changes were going to occur in the workplace at an increasingly higher rate.

Equal pay for equal work for women, women flying in the CF, women serving in fighters in the CF, the right of homosexuals to openly serve in the Forces and marry... even in Air Canada, employment equity in hiring hasn't been new. Rather than the divisive arguing that marked the merger with CDN, and the union split of ACPA from CALPA, and the several court cases which seemingly have no root, but instead are referred to by the judge's name; it would be nice if they could instead sit down and say, "Okay you're sixty-one, and still here, we value your training and check experience, but to be fair, it's time to go back to the right seat as a mentor for new captains at a rate which reflects your hard-earned pension"

I have a much stronger vision of a lawsuit.

[tonysoprano]

This whole thing was a farce from the beginning. We all knew the outcome from the beginning. Canada is not a leader but a follower. A country of bleeding-heart, granola-crunching, pot-smokers in our legal system. Was there ever any doubt about these two losers winning? Yes, Canada, where losers are winners!! Where murderers are victims. And where things are so predictable in our justice system. These guys knew what the terms of employment were when they signed on. Now they, not AC, not ACPA, will change those terms. Kind of a mockery of the democratic system when you have the majority of the members of a unionized group in favor of age 60 only to be overruled by a minority who knew the conditions of employment over 30 years ago when they joined. Many younger pilots will have to wait yet even longer for that left seat or that seat that pays more money. The 60 year old guy that needs to continue to work has issues which the younger generation will have to pay for. With any luck, common sense will override the cracked legal system and companies together with labor groups will have the final say in how this bullshit gets administered. I wonder if our younger generation will be able to sue for lost wages and altered career benefits.

[Localizer]

I think this could be a first ... there might be a slew of people in agreement with Tony!

In the next contract there should be a clause that anyone over 60 wears a special vest ... and instead of Deer season, we create a new "season" of sorts ... lock and load! ... time to bag a sixer!

[yousuck]

Can some body explain me why some one would like to work until 65...? As for myself, I'll retire as soon as I can!( and I'll rent a C-172 one or two sunday every year)..

P.S. Hey! you, yes,yes, YOU who want to work until you'll die!! GET A LIFE!!!

[Hedley]

This is way better than what's on TV right now.

[Rowdy]

So what about the guys who have retired in the past 2 or 3 years... will they have the chance to come back to their pay and seniority? food for thought...

[nimbostratus]

And just how are these over 60 year old guys going to fly into many of Air Canada's destinations that have a 60 year old cap on flight crew age (in either seat) eg. Italy?
Will the over 60 crew members be limited to domestic only?

[flying4dollars]

Air Canada, which also requires pilots over age 40 to undergo physical examinations every six months, has 30 days to appeal the decision.

Yesss, because TC has nothing to do with this rule

[Liquid Charlie]

I love it -- good on him and after 65 he can go and fly a 2otter haha -- those are my plans -- Archie van Hee was still at it doing training and flying the line at 76 - I believe he might still be alive and be close to 100 - I'm positive that AC is the only carrier in canada who have a 60 retirement age -- so boys have this conversation again when you are 60 and see what u think then. Gone (or it never was) are the juicy indexed pension plans -- all you young lads better plan on working to about 100 --

[Rotten Apple #1]

If you're a married pilot, screwin' around 'on the road' has just become more economically feasible.

[Rockie]

From the beginning this issue has been personalized as a battle between those whose careers will be stalled for a few years against those greedy a**holes wanting to double dip their pension and earn top dollar at Air Canada at the same time (never mind you can't collect a pension from the same place you are currently employed full time). It is still personalized judging from the tone of some of these posts.

Air Canada pilots are still bent on blaming the catalyst for change instead of preparing for it like they should have been all along, and which Ray Hall has been trying in vain to get them to do. Now they're all standing around with that deer in the headlights look, and the only thing they can think to do is continue to point fingers and act like children. This had been coming for some time, and all the misinformation and incorrect assumptions could have been avoided by proactive preparation instead of sticking our collective heads in the sand.

There is a complete vacuum of information on what happens next because we absolutely refused to prepare for the inevitable. Now we are playing catch up and it is very likely we will lose out even further because of our unpreparedness. There are no basic principles that will be protected like there are in the US (because they did prepare), and neither the company or the union have any idea how this will all be sorted out because no one chose to think about it.

This process is going to be long and painful, but it will turn out not nearly as bad as most of our pilots are fearing. Change had to happen despite what the contract says, and when all is said and done I'm sure everyone will realize that it is better for all overall. As a group we are not good at thinking beyond our own immediate selfish little world, so unfortunately change has to be forced on us rather than driven by us. But in today's world with older new hires who may now have a chance to collect a full pension, not to mention how far this goes to ensuring the very health of the pension, this had to happen whether we thought so or not.

What is necessary is for people to stop talking about how we knew what the conditions were when we hired on. It is not only irrelevant in principle since the world is constantly changing, but according to the Federal Courts and Human Rights Tribunal it is discriminatory and therefore illegal. Time to get over it boys and start thinking ahead instead of backwards.

[tonysoprano]

Rockie,
Just out of curiosity can you please enlighten me on:
a)why "change had to happen"?
b)how you can be so sure this will be best for all?

You also state that ACPA should have just accepted this from the start and just prepare for the inevitable. I could only be sure of the inevitable in so far as how our justice system works or rather how it doesn't. ACPA did what the MAJORITY of its membership requested. That is, to do whatever it could to stop this. Just because the courts decide in your favour doesn't make you right. How many times has AC seen this recently. Merger for example??? Look, you can tell yourself over and over this is right because that's where you stand. But I can guarantee you that history will prove you wrong. The potential damage to the pilot group at AC can only be avoided if this is allowed to be negotiated between ACPA and the company in a way that's best for all. And I have a feeling it's going to cost the company and the members big bucks.

[CelBatrin]

Personalized comment coming up:

The baby boomer generation in nothing more then a tumorous growth on a demographic pyramid.
Shitstorm recession hits and what happens? Those 55 and over have seen an employment rise of 5% this year (Mclean's Aug. 24 page 36). Meanwhile recent graduates get the shaft.

[snaproll20]

I would like to make 4 comments;

1. what is next? euthaenasia for the elderly?

2.) the old guys are whining NOW, some of you young punks are ALREADY whining about your promotions. Maybe you should try and figure out what your opinion may be when YOU hit 60 years of age.

3.) some people don't know how to retire, they are workaholics. Some people can't afford to retire. Some have wives who don't want them around after so many years of living apart. Some people have no clue. I just took up a southern residence and drinking tequila, so what do I know.

4.) As someone said, this has been a longtime coming and nobody planned for it. And they let these people fly airplanes for a living.

[ScudRunner]

I do when retirement age is 60 in the contract.

What do you think of this?

On Friday, the Human Rights Commission ruled that Air Canada's policy is unconstitutional.

Jebus ., didn't know you could get internet on the Ice flow we put you out on this spring.