• TC's definition of X-Country?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:34 am**

Apparently TC in the Quebec region only accepts XC/pic time if you land at another airport and shut down. Touch & go doesn't count, and you should have two seperate flight plans (to Go and Back).

Since when is this the def for XC? can anybody shed some light on this?
A fellow instructor of mine, is now stuck and is having a hard time getting his ATPL.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:34 am**

What a bunch of crap. At least 50% of my cross country time involved taking off and landing at the same airport, and TC never had a problem with it when I got my PPL. As far as I am aware, there is no definition of "cross country" in the CARs. Just make sure you put "X-CNTRY" or similar as the destination in your logbook, and also put in the comments where you actually went and it should be fine.

Perhaps the problem is Quebec...

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:58 am**

It was my understanding that there is no "definition" of XC.

I would imagine common sense would apply here (dangerous assumption with TC) but if I'm simply doing air work, I wouldn't count it as XC. If I were flying to another airport, simply for the purpose of navigating there, I would write it in as XC. Having said that, there's no reason you can't have a partial XC flight... for example navigating to a nearby airport, doing some touch and go's, then off for some air work and return.

The apparent inconsistency between TC regions is unfortunate.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:04 pm**

Doesn't XC consist of any flight where you go at least 25 nm away from the departure airport?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:19 pm**

trampbike wrote:Doesn't XC consist of any flight where you go at least 25 nm away from the departure airport?

That has always been my assumption as well. I don't believe a flight plan is needed either, flying with a flight note is good enough.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:27 pm**

AFAIK nowhere in the CARs (or even AIM) does it reference
25nm for "cross-country".

In fact, AFAIK there is no definition of x/c in either CARs or AIM.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:32 pm**

Apparently, even TC doesn't know : here is the answer I received in 2008 from TC.

Thank you for your query.

Cross country flight time is any flight that you will conduct, that will require you to navigate along a route to a destination.

Transport Canada does not specifically define this term but gives specific requirements for each licence. For example the licence requirements for a Private Pilot Licence in the aeroplane category requires that "the cross country flight must be a minimum of 150 nautical miles long which shall include 2 full stop landings at points other than the point of departure". The commercial pilot licence will be different of course.

In addition to that, if you look at the requirement for your logbook in the CARs, XC time is not part of the requested informations.... but each time you have a new rating or a new licence, that's what they request for.

Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of
(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)
(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:
(a) the date of the flight;
(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;
(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;
(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;
(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;
(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;
(g) the flight time;
(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and
(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person
(a) is the holder of the log; or
(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.

But if you lose your logbook, you have to find your XC time :

(1) Loss of Personal Log

An applicant for a flight crew permit, licence or rating who is unable to provide proof of flying experience by means of a personal log, due to extenuating circumstances such as the loss of records through fire, theft or other similar cause, may submit an Affidavit or Statutory Declaration sworn before a Commissioner of Oaths, to the Minister.

(a) The affidavit or declaration shall contain a breakdown of flying experience claimed, appropriate to the permit, licence or rating applied for and shall include the following details:
(i) hours flown by day and by night on single and multi-engine aircraft as pilot-in-command, co-pilot and dual;
(ii) hours flown cross-country by day and by night as pilot-in-command, co-pilot and dual;
(iii) hours of instrument flight time and approved instrument ground trainer time;
(iv) aircraft types and registrations; and
(v) where applicable, names of employers and dates of employment.

(b) The affidavit or declaration shall contain an explanation of the circumstances which prevented the submission of a personal log and a statement declaring that all attempts to reproduce and certify entries in a personal log have been unsuccessful.

(c) Wherever practicable, the applicant shall obtain corroborating evidence, such as copies of journey log book entries.

(d) Affidavits or Statutory Declarations submitted without corroborating evidence shall not be accepted by the Minister as evidence of flying experience beyond that required for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence.

(e) The applicant shall, in addition, successfully complete all examinations and tests required for the permit, licence or rating applied for.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:41 pm**

I just learned a few months ago that it is mandatory to enter every flight into your pilots log book

, I guess it became a rule in '93. Lots of guys at the local strip were surprised as well.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:48 pm**

it is mandatory to enter every flight into your pilots log book

Wrong - there is no CAR requiring you to do so.

This subject has been beaten to death here before.

Let's try to keep the spread of disinformation to a minimum, ok?

Cross-country is NOT defined in the CARs, nor is there
a CAR requiring you to log every flight in your personal
logbook.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:52 pm**

Hedley wrote:
it is mandatory to enter every flight into your pilots log book
Wrong - there is no CAR requiring you to do so.

This subject has been beaten to death here before.

Let's try to keep the spread of disinformation to a minimum, ok?

Cross-country is NOT defined in the CARs, nor is there
a CAR requiring you to log every flight in your personal
logbook.

Good! Now I don't feel so dumb.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:45 pm**

Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of
(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)
(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:
(a) the date of the flight;
(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;
(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;
(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;
(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;
(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;
(g) the flight time;
(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and
(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person
(a) is the holder of the log; or
(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.

The way I read the above would say it is a requirement to keep a personal log. (The emphasis is mine).

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:46 pm**

Wrong - there is no CAR requiring you to do so.

I thought there was? Well anways..I could be wrong!

Where do TC inspectors come up with this? It's almost like they are making up the rules as they go. Another fellow instructor of mine couldn't get his class III because one of the flight test consisted of a partial but eventual pass. Since when???? Couldn't find it anywhere it in the RAC?

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:20 pm**

Captain Slog wrote:Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of
(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)
(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:
(a) the date of the flight;
(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;
(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;
(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;
(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;
(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;
(g) the flight time;
(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and
(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person
(a) is the holder of the log; or
(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.

The way I read the above would say it is a requirement to keep a personal log. (The emphasis is mine).

Absolutely not. You only need to maintain a log to show that you are current, or if you want to upgrade your ticket. You can fly every day for 5 years, 10 hours a day, and all you have to log is one flight as PIC in these 5 years and you are current ( and the 5 takeoff and landings every 6 months if you take px, of course).

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:04 pm**

all you have to log is one flight as PIC (every) 5 years

Precisely.

In addition, you would be very surprised as to what meets
the CARs requirements as a "personal log".

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:40 am**

what if you take off and are enroute on a cross country flight and have an engine failure, can't you log Take off time to forced landing time as xc?

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:29 pm**

What if my Capt has a jammer in the left seat and I have to heroically take over as a F/O and do a goshed darned approach and landing all on my lonesome, to an uneventful routine landing? Do I get to log the time from Jammer to the time of Landing as PIC?

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:16 pm**

hell no! its the f/o's fault if the capt kicks the bucket, so you dont even get the SIC any more

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:03 pm**

And you shall be fired because you didn't calculate your decent profile properly and used thrust for 20 nm... EVEN though you were flying alone.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:41 pm**

OK, I have no idea where you get this information from, but it is simply not true. TC in the Quebec region DOES NOT require that you land at another airport for you to log XC time. It is simply bullshit. As has been stated previously, there is no definition in the CARs of what cross-country time is. The 25 NM requirement only applies to flight plans and even that can be worked around.

Now as for saying Quebec is the problem, in reference to a non issue, give me a break with the Quebec bashing. You a**hole.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:33 pm**

While we're talking about XC time, what are your feelings about logging XC time or not on short legs - 0.2, 0.3 air time - between lakes/airstrips in the mountains? I suppose one could argue it is XC time because you are navigating so you don't fly into a box canyon, on the other hand (my short flights) are pretty simple - follow valley A to valley B, turn right, follow the valley a little farther then land. Any NWO float pilots that do short legs care to contribute if they log XC time or not?

I don't particularly care either way. I'm trying to get my company and personal times to match - and we've been logging XC times differently for the past few months.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:36 pm**

I thought there was? Well anways..I could be wrong!

Where do TC inspectors come up with this? It's almost like they are making up the rules as they go. Another fellow instructor of mine couldn't get his class III because one of the flight test consisted of a partial but eventual pass. Since when???? Couldn't find it anywhere it in the RAC?

Courtesy of CSK3Rampboy

Well Rampie, couldn't tell you about Quebec Region's Inspectors, but you could be wrong about your friend, largely because the RAC is not the source for licence details. More to the point, the wording of the term Partial Flight Test is misleading. It doesn't, to be kind, mean that a candidate partially passed (at least for instructors). It means the candidate failed. Not everything in the ride card, but one item. Which, for an instructor hoping to upgrade, is like a teenager discovering his girlfriend is a little bit pregnant. NOt what one treats as good news. It now means re-training and onother recommendation for your student. Now you have to find another three to recommend.

(a) Subject to paragraph 4(b) below, an applicant shall complete an "Instructor's Training Record While Under Direct Supervision" indicating evidence of:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) authorizing no fewer than 3 students for their first solo flight,
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(ii) recommending no fewer than 3 students for their flight test for issue of a permit or licence, all of whom (italics mine- JC) demonstrated the required standard of skill and knowledge; and

Courtesy- CARS IV Standard 421 Flight Crew Licences

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:37 pm**

It now means re-training and onother recommendation for your student. Now you have to find another three to recommend.

I'm pretty drugged up right now (legal) so I may have read this wrong. If so forgive me, but man I feel good

A class IV only needs 3 sucessful recommends, so the instructor only needs one more, the first 2 still count.

As for the X-Country time. WGARA, you only need it for your ATPL upgrade. Log it if your beginning point of your flight differs from the end point, it's easy to prove and you don't have to argue it with TC. You obviously had to fly X-Country to get there.

Once you reach the ATPL time requirements stop logging it. Nobody's ever going to ask. Sorry I lied, there is one person, When I converted to a FAA they asked, when they asked why so little I told them I only had to log for the ATPL and since I was done I stopped. He laughed and moved on.

Wow I'm buzzing, I guess those tylenol 3s pack quite the punch, Note to self no more then 2 at a time.

Cheers

Lurch

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:59 am**

*** edited ***

Posted: **Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm**

TC will always make me laugh!

They ask us to do X-country flight time but they don`t know what it is!

Of course, TC can tell you, in a letter, that "Cross country flight time is any flight that you will conduct, that will require you to navigate along a route to a destination" but when it comes the time to submit your logbook for a new license, they can change the definition if they don't like your face!

Again, it's a proof that the government doesn't care about the aviation industry. At least, the public doesn't know the truth about the unregulated aviation industry in Canada! Let's keep the secret...

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:59 pm**

trampbike wrote:Doesn't XC consist of any flight where you go at least 25 nm away from the departure airport?

Transport told me in 2001 every flight to the Claremont practice area from CYTZ could be logged as cross-country.

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