visual and contact

[navajo]

I heard the other day on the radio ATC telling to someone he cannot do a contact (or visual I don`t remember) approach since he wasn`t under radar coverage.

So here`s my questions:

If, during an approach, I have to fly through controlled airspace, but the airport is located in uncontrolled airspace, can I ask for a visual or contact approach? (the airport is too far to get radar coverage).

If I`m clear out of the controlled airspace via the NDB A approach, can I ask for a contact or a visual approach if I want to do a straigh in? (still no radar coverage).

Yes, I`m aware of RAC 9.6.2.

Thanks

[ywgflyboy]

Wow no ones answered this one..must be a grey area.

I googled the question for myself since no one has replied and after reading a little could it have something to do with the fact that before being cleared for a visual approach on an IFR flight plan, the pilot must report the field in sight, at which time ATC can issue a visual anytime a pilot indicates they have the field. If you were uncontrolled you would have no way to indicating you have visual, so they would have no way to issue you the visual.

ATC is also required to maintain IFR separation between aircraft doing contact approaches, if their is no way to maintaining separation (no radar) a contact approach can not be done.

That is how I interpret it all. Of course if there are a million pilots in Canada, there are a million different interpretations of those CARs!!!

[kevenv]

Wow no ones answered this one..must be a grey area.

I googled the question for myself since no one has replied and after reading a little could it have something to do with the fact that before being cleared for a visual approach on an IFR flight plan, the pilot must report the field in sight, at which time ATC can issue a visual anytime a pilot indicates they have the field. If you were uncontrolled you would have no way to indicating you have visual, so they would have no way to issue you the visual.

Wrong. If you are in uncontrolled airspace you can do whatever you want. Don't confuse radar coverage with controlled or uncontrolled. The two have nothing to do with each other. As well, how does the fact that you are uncontrolled mean you have no way of indicating you have the field visual? Again though, if you are in uncontrolled airspace you can do whatever you want.

ATC is also required to maintain IFR separation between aircraft doing contact approaches, if their is no way to maintaining separation (no radar) a contact approach can not be done.

Wrong. Although we maintain separation between all a/c regardless of the type of approach (except for successive visuals), we have a big book of separation standards that go way beyond radar separation. Vertical is the easiest to achieve.

I heard the other day on the radio ATC telling to someone he cannot do a contact (or visual I don`t remember) approach since he wasn`t under radar coverage.

Not sure why. Contact approaches are covered under Chapter 4 of our regs which is not radar procedures. Visual approaches on the other hand are in Chapter 5, Radar procedures. Perhaps the controller in denying the visual approach (if it was indeed a request for this) was relying on the following:

D. you ensure the aircraft will complete its
approach by following a flight path which
will not compromise separation with other
IFR or CVFR aircraft.

The note for this says:
566.1 D. Note:
Separation is maintained through monitoring the
progress of the aircraft after it is cleared for a visual
approach.

We used to have a local published requirement that we could only approve / issue visual approaches at airports that had SID's (thus essentially forcing it to be a matter of radar coverage. This was dropped a few years ago. A contact or visual approach shuts down the airport for any other arrivals or departures. It will never be issued or approved until the controller is 100 percent certain you are and will remain clear of any other IFR / CVFR traffic. You don't necessarily need radar to ensure this

So here`s my questions:

If, during an approach, I have to fly through controlled airspace, but the airport is located in uncontrolled airspace, can I ask for a visual or contact approach? (the airport is too far to get radar coverage).

Yes. I routinely clear a/c out of controlled airspace via an approach at Sumspot. The a/c almost always request a visual or contact (weather permitting)

If I`m clear out of the controlled airspace via the NDB A approach, can I ask for a contact or a visual approach if I want to do a straigh in? (still no radar coverage).

Again, Yes. We do not run arrival vs departure separation at uncontrolled airports. It is one in and one out. The fact that you are getting an approach clearance indicates to me that there is no other traffic that would be an issue.

It is tough to second guess what may have happened or what another controller's reasons for denying / approving something may have been. I was told years ago that there are two types of controllers. Those that use the rules to move traffic and those that use the same rules to not move traffic. You would be surprised at how many times controllers disagree on the interpretation and or application of the rules.

Edited many times because I apparently cannot spell.

[ywgflyboy]

Never said google was the best option but I tried! Thanks for your response kevenv

[portsatc]

in yyz acc...for us to clear you for a visual approach there must be a weather sequence for the airport you are landing at....an auto sequence or metar. I cannot clear you for a visual approach for an airport like Brantford for example even if its sky clear and you see the field as there is no weather sequence for this airport. That is why we always say that a contact is avail upon request. If you are able, the best way to approach this is to cancel your IFR but to keep your alerting open if you are worried about that. That way...you can go in visually, and we are not blocking airspace (for example at CYFD...4000 and blo if you are doing an approach into there) even in VMC conditions.

[Braun]

Exactly what the poster above said. For a visual approach a weather sequence must be published for the said airport.

[IFRATC]

If in doubt ask ATC for the contact. The weather requirements are much less and their only has to be a functioning navaid servicing the aerodrome. Yes, we have to provide IFR separation between other aircraft, but from the flightdeck perspective whats really the difference to you? In either case you are continuing to destination aerodrome under visual conditions. The contact approach (although an IFR app) puts the onus squarely on the pilot. You can request it if you have at least 1 mile flight vis and "reasonable expectation"" of continuing to destination under this condition. Our responsibilty lies only to ensure there is an approved functioning navaid servicing the field, and to provide IFR sep.
All you have to do is ask. I quite like it when the pilot requests one. With multiple arrivals it is still more efficient than most approaches.

IFRATC

[TG]

If in doubt ask ATC for the contact. The weather requirements are much less and their only has to be a functioning navaid servicing the aerodrome. Yes, we have to provide IFR separation between other aircraft, but from the flightdeck perspective whats really the difference to you? In either case you are continuing to destination aerodrome under visual conditions.

Another way to see it as a pilot.
One still have to be sure of his weather at destination or actually having the field in sight when requesting for a visual.
As a visual cancel your IFR, contrary to a contact approach where you remain IFR.

It can make a lot of difference if you have to go around.

Not sure of how this story can be true but I remember a flying school's urban legend of a Navajo asking for a visual in dodgy weather, missing and finding itself at the far end of the IFR arrival queue.
(after asking for a new clearance)

[kevenv]

Another way to see it as a pilot.
One still have to be sure of his weather at destination or actually having the field in sight when requesting for a visual.
As a visual cancel your IFR, contrary to a contact approach where you remain IFR.

A visual approach clx DOES NOT cancel your IFR. You are provided with IFR separation from all other IFR or SVFR a/c, except those that you may be following or may be following you on a visual.

[TG]

A visual approach clx DOES NOT cancel your IFR.

Good point.

It's the part after a missed approach following a 'visual' I was trying to refer.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publi ... -0.htm#9-6

A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go-around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft crews are required to remain clear of clouds and are expected to complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft crew is required to remain clear of clouds, maintain appropriate separation from other airport traffic and is expected to contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. ATC separation from other IFR aircraft is only assured once further ATC clearance has been received and acknowledged by the aircraft crew.

[navajo]

I guess ATCs are like us, different people can interpret the CARS differently. Thanks a lot for taking time to answer my question!