Your Flight Safety Concerns

[Widow]

You all know I am not an expert. Some of you like to remind me as often as possible!

That said, through various threads on the forum, I am aware of several issues that many experienced aviators agree upon.

Some examples of flight safety concerns I've noticed include those associated with training, SEIFR, night circling approaches and fatigue/duty days.

I'd like to start addressing some of these concerns specifically on the SafeSkies website.

I'd be interested in seeing discussion of your biggest concerns here in this thread.

Also, if anyone would be willing to help by writing an article (it could be anonymous) please respond by email or PM.

[mattedfred]

sorry i missed this thread when you first posted it widow

i wouldn't mind discussing flight safety concerns right here

i think the thread should start off with a discussion about pilot in command or captain's authority

how should one handle a flight safety concern when it presents itself on the line?

i have my own thoughts on the subject

any others care to contribute?

[_dwj_]

Here is a very useful source of information regarding flight safety:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/

In particular, check out the Nall reports in the "accident analysis" section. It's mostly the same old things that cause accidents again and again.

[mattedfred]

the silence on this post is deafening

[Widow]

Maybe I've got it all wrong mattedfred. Maybe no one has any flight safety concerns. Or they just don't want to tell me about them

[mattedfred]

oh i think you are on the right track. sadly too many of us would rather bitch and moan and blame others rather than do anything about it. commenting on CADORS and accident reports is also very popular. apathy, complacency or ignorance perhaps.

[Changes in Latitudes]

A lot of my concerns simply fall upon our shoulders as professionals. I know there will always be companies that try to cut corners with maintenance, wages, duty times, pushing weather, etc. Yes, we can champion for heightened regulation and responsible oversight, we can always do more in that regards. However, we will never completely eliminate it from the system, that's where professionals come in and know when to walk away. That's my concern, do we walk away? Do we know when to say no? Or is our job just so cool that we're willing to put up with less than ideal conditions? And if we don't put up with it, why is there a guy behind us that will not only put up with it, but will put up with it for less?

So what it comes down to in my eyes, is our standards as professionals, our ability to demand more, to refuse unsafe conditions and to walk away from deplorable treatment. Our passion and love of aviation should not be a bargaining chip in obtaining professionals to work in a less than professional environment.

In short...
I'd like to see us set higher standards for ourselves for a change.

[Widow]

Cue the College of Professional Pilots of Canada.

Edited to add: golly but I wish they could hurry it up!

[Changes in Latitudes]

Cue the College of Professional Pilots of Canada.

Edited to add: golly but I wish they could hurry it up!

I am 100% on board with that and would love to get involved.

[Widow]

If serious, email me, and I can hook you up.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Here is another website with lots of great info, studies, links etc.

http://www.flightsafety.org/

As far as the College goes, I will hold off on getting exited until I see what minimum requirements will be and what type of tests/exams if any must be passed to join forces. Look forward to seeing what the College' definition of a professsional pilot will be?

[Hawkeye4077]

I don't like that when you are the FO and the captain decides to do something you are not comfortable with: overweight, below mins, short fuel, name it. Besides knocking him off and take controls, there is not much you can do. I know you can always file a report after the flight and all but what if you never make it and never get the chance to report it....

[confuzed]

One thing that I mull over sometimes is that people are concerned about the length of their duty day, but don't think anything about their time free from duty. Instead of having the minimum time free from duty at 8 hours, why not make that longer. I don't mind flying a 14 - 15 hour duty day, but give me more then 8 hours of "prone" rest. The alotted times on layover are sometimes not very realistic. This really catches up to you on a multi day pairing with layovers in multiple time zones during said multi day pairing. Even if it were set up that you get extra time off when you go over 10 (just a number at random) hours that would be a step in the right direction. Am I way out in left field here, or is there anyone that thinks along the same lines?

[armchair]

.

[mattedfred]

i'll bet you dinner that the CofPP comes to fruition. the BOD is actually meeting in YYC this month i think.

[Liquid Charlie]

I don't like that when you are the FO and the captain decides to do something you are not comfortable with:

It's up to you to tell him you are not comfortable with that. For the captains out there -- first rule of command -- you are a team (unless you are single pilot) - and unless there is a consensus you don't do it. Pretty simple -- I have to ask why we get questions like above - maybe that's the root of a lot of safety issues. So is it monkey see - monkey do - will the person who quoted that take that to the left seat when he moves up. Seems the system might have a weakness here - we are only as good as our mentors and if we hook up with a bad guy he is contagious - it's like a virus. No more room for the G'ivers of this industry.

Rules tend to be maximums or minimums - trick is to find where you fit and stay with it.

There are rules and laws to set the guide lines but policy can make it safer - example - companies do not do circling approaches, there are major carriers that don't do non-precision approaches. These are policies to make their operations safer.

My List

1/ Crew Fatigue

2/ Missed Approaches

3/ Circling Approaches (I honesty have to go back almost 20 years since I've done one on the line)

[Doc]

I don't like that when you are the FO and the captain decides to do something you are not comfortable with: overweight, below mins, short fuel, name it. Besides knocking him off and take controls, there is not much you can do. I know you can always file a report after the flight and all but what if you never make it and never get the chance to report it....

Just to ad to what Liquid Charles had to say on this one. This used to be a really big problem. The captain, in too many cases had such a large ego, that many co-pilots (I hate that term....methinks it'll change to something like "administrative assistant") would simply cower in their corner of the cockpit, and let the captain kill them.
I was hoping those days were in our past....guess (from your post at least) they're still with us.
Forget the "report", you may already be dead. Talk about it on the spot. Be sure you're both on the "same page" as far as the safety of the flight goes.
I can see where this could be a huge safety issue.

My list..

1. Missed approaches....these should be simple, and straight forward. Brief, and do.
2. Circling approaches....for reasons that should be obvious.
3. Single pilot IFR.....way to easy to be distracted. Really nice to have one head in, and one head out.
4. Fatigue.....not so much a personal problem, but certainly an industry problem.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Cue the College of Professional Pilots of Canada.

Edited to add: golly but I wish they could hurry it up!

I would not get to exited yet. 703/704 pilots might not qualify for a membership. The very pilots working in the most challenging sector of Canadian aviation. I suspect it might be "airline pilots" only ordeal, but we'll have to wait and see.

When something like this gets going I am skeptical because someone, somewhere always has a personal agenda. I squirm at the thought of restricting the number of flying scool or number of entrants issued Commercial licenses. Reason being I know some of the individuals pushing for this College and they got their own start in avaiation by getting their licenses at Mom & Pop's Flying School!

Sorry for the hi-jack.
As far as safety concerns I will say +1 to everything Doc brought up.

RB

[seniorpumpkin]

VFR pilots and planes flying through clouds- just because you have an artificial horizon and it's a wee puff of cloud doesn't make it safe
infrequent training- I think it should be mandated that we spend 30 minutes EVERY month reviewing emergency checklist items, I honestly think that's all it would take
Lack of safety training for management teams- sometimes they get so caught up in making money, they all forget that LIVES are on the line!
Lack of money in aviation- this leads to cutting corners in every aspect of the operation and leads to plenty of unsafe decisions

[Widow]

i'll bet you dinner that the CofPP comes to fruition. the BOD is actually meeting in YYC this month i think.

I think I heard the same thing.

I would not get to exited yet. 703/704 pilots might not qualify for a membership. The very pilots working in the most challenging sector of Canadian aviation. I suspect it might be "airline pilots" only ordeal, but we'll have to wait and see.

I hope you are wrong Rubberbiscuit. The "plight" of the non-airline pilots was one of the main reasons for the impetus.

[snaproll20]

confuzed:

There has always been an issue with the way some pilots spend their 'rest' time. Once upon a time some pilots were fired for playing golf all day when they were supposed to be sleeping. This reinforces the opinion that most of the problems exist because pilots are their own enemies.

You equated a 14 hour duty day to compensatory amounts of rest time. That concept was suggested by a TC person to be put into the original CARS duty rules. The concept was '10 hours on, 10 hours off" 14 hours on 14 hours off" etc.

According to the teller, his written suggestion was huffed at and thrown on the floor by the representative of an airline pilot union group. I will not comment on whether this was a good, workable suggestion. My point is, when the CARS were put together, the same disregard for the industry opinions were at work and the CARS were not tailored for 703/704 operations.
The blame for that falls entirely on TCCA. Not to automatically bash them, but define their culpability.

Meantime, some operators play fast and loose with what is a very-difficltl-to-understand document. The CARS were rushed into being, just like SMS, without proper input from across the aviation board. It took almost 10 years to clarify the "8 hours IFR per day" rule.

My input, Widow, would be as follows.


1.) Rapid and total implementation of GPS approaches for all runways. This would help with circling and overshoots.
2.) I never had problems with pilot duty days because I used to run a system where the pilots had the final word as to whether they were fatigued. This was because in my young days, we flew duty days that would cause many pilots of today to faint. What I mean by that is I recognized the problem and learned to avoid it.

Sharp pilots conduct dull flights.

[mattedfred]

as i recall the college BOD meets this monday, tuesday and maybe wednesday in YYC

[petpad]

where can we read more about the composition of the BoD, (names) and who sanctioned it, etc.

[mattedfred]

http://collegeofpilots.com/

the website still isn't ready yet unfortunately

if you work for AC, ACJ, WJ or Transat you may be able to find out from your union/association executives

[paydaymayday]

Night circling approaches - let us rid ourselves of them. They can even get pretty hairy under two crew, and I would never consider doing one single pilot.