Instructor Rating Vs. Buying my PPC
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Instructor Rating Vs. Buying my PPC
Let me ask the question: you have just completed your Commercial IFR. You have two offers an Instructing rating with a school that tells you, you got the job once completed or a PPC (let say a Navajo) don’t tell me most of you will go for the Instructor rating when you can spend the same money and get some real experience. The PPC would be better time and experience in the logbook vs. building time in the circuit. After hitting 1000 hrs of instructing anytime after that doesn’t mean squat in the logbook. What I am trying to say buying an Instructor rating is the same thing as buying a PPC, most schools hire their own. Now I am not criticizing Instructing (I use to be one myself) it is a very important job and good way to build your first few hundred hours till you get that next job (Navajo, maybe?). So what is the difference to others that read this I am curious on your opinion, what is the difference between buying an instructor rating to work vs. buying a PPC to work and build time, the funny thing is the PPC job will probably pay more and be a more stable job, and you will have better opportunity finding that next job or I should say quicker…
Tell me how many instuctors have problems getting their ATPL's signed off. Tell me how many instructors have to sit in the right seat for half a decade because they don't have any PIC time. Sure there are some instructing gigs that blow. I don't know any that tarnish your name to the degree that buying a PPC does though. Any company that will hire you with a PPC with 3-5hrs on type with a grand total of 203.6hrs is a company I'd avoid like the plauge.
The very quickest people I've seen move up the ranks have been instructors, or guys who have built PIC time through other low end jobs. PIC time is a tool that allows you to pass those without it. Sure a navajo or King Air PPC is great, but if you don't have the PIC time to go left seat then you're gonna be sitting in the right hand side for a long time.
You may be right that you're able to get to the charter company more quickly than an instructor. Bet your ass that once the instructor is there with their PIC time they'll move up more quickly though.
The very quickest people I've seen move up the ranks have been instructors, or guys who have built PIC time through other low end jobs. PIC time is a tool that allows you to pass those without it. Sure a navajo or King Air PPC is great, but if you don't have the PIC time to go left seat then you're gonna be sitting in the right hand side for a long time.
You may be right that you're able to get to the charter company more quickly than an instructor. Bet your ass that once the instructor is there with their PIC time they'll move up more quickly though.
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just another pilot
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You may also develop certain skills instructing that you may not elsewhere. As for the difference in paying for the two, I assume you mean issues of principle?
Hmm, well T.C. requires certified (dont laugh Cat) F.I. to train ab initio licenses to a standard. Why don't flight schools pay for them? I don't know, but it is a license rating and a flight privilege.
PPC? Required by companies generating revenue on a specific type of A/C. Should a competent/experienced pilot be expected to cover basic costs for generating revenue for an air for a 703/704 operator? Hey, maybe they could split the cost of gas too?
IMHO.
Hmm, well T.C. requires certified (dont laugh Cat) F.I. to train ab initio licenses to a standard. Why don't flight schools pay for them? I don't know, but it is a license rating and a flight privilege.
PPC? Required by companies generating revenue on a specific type of A/C. Should a competent/experienced pilot be expected to cover basic costs for generating revenue for an air for a 703/704 operator? Hey, maybe they could split the cost of gas too?
IMHO.
Man you are new in aviation. My buddy is a cp and they advertise for a nav pilot and they had 140 pilots with nav ppc's apply and all of them over 1000 hours. So I will make you a deal give me the 5000 you are going to blow on that PPC and I will kick you in the nuts. Go the instructor way
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wha happen
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i agree with endless, sitting in the right seat is fine for an ego boost, but when it really comes down to it you are not getting the PIC time. Now correct me if im wrong, but, doesnt right seat time only count for half the time of the left seat guy? So, theoretically you would nedd 3000 hours to apply for the ATPL. Now, which do you think is the better option. Dont knock instructing until youve done it, its not the most glamorous job, but 1 hour actually counts for 1 hour.
very truewha happen wrote: doesnt right seat time only count for half the time of the left seat guy? So, theoretically you would nedd 3000 hours to apply for the ATPL.
And do not forget that transport has a bug up their butts about even allowing pilots to count right seat time at all if the aircraft is not certified for operation 2 crew only. So hope it is a pretty big plane, or else your time may count for NOTHING. Which is what you deserve for being such a fucking idiot anyway. Plus, why do you need a PPC to sit in the right seat?
Re: Instructor Rating Vs. Buying my PPC
And, you obviously have NO clue if you believe that.DoughBoy wrote:the funny thing is the PPC job will probably pay more and be a more stable job
The discussion of 1 instructing hour = 1 hour towards the ATPL raises another question (maybe better suited to another forum):
Why is it considered more valuable to instruct than sit in a two- crew, turbine aircraft over 12500lbs in actual IFR? Does anyone else think this doesn't make sense? I think the two situations should be treated equally.
Sorry to interrupt.
Why is it considered more valuable to instruct than sit in a two- crew, turbine aircraft over 12500lbs in actual IFR? Does anyone else think this doesn't make sense? I think the two situations should be treated equally.
Sorry to interrupt.
"Sometimes the faster it gets, the less you need to know." - Gord Downie
Well I see most of you would go the Instructor route. There is nothing wrong with that to set the record. Again, Flight Instructing was my first job as well. Bartbandy I have no clue OK my friend, I have gone through all the ranks from my first flight school, to 703, 704, and now 705. My experience that I have witnessed over the years is the PPC route overall is more beneficial and quicker step in reaching 704/705 operation work, if that is what your goal is. Now if you pay for the job (PPC/PCC) or work the ramp to get it I guess is a differ subject now. I have seen it through my movement, so I don’t know where you presently work but the resumes do not stop flowing in from flight Instructors for that first Multi job my friend. My point is the faster you can get in a multi the better you are. Yes, PIC is important and that is where you have to make that decision, Joe can work 1000 instructing say one years work, or Jim 1000hrs 1 yr SIC (Navajo). Do not tell me Joe from the flight school is going to surpass Jim on the Navajo to PIC. ATPL has no bearing to a lot of you that brought it up, unless you are wanting to PIC anything over 12,500 right after you finish instructing…good luck. Or let’s say you go in the Metro right seat from instructing; your right Endless that instructor may pass the 2000 hour SIC that doesn’t have PIC to meet ATPL, of course this happens there are success stories on both sides. But the difficult question is, to go and find that right seat Metro job from instructing. Most of these jobs are given to (Jim) the Navajo driver or the pilots on the ramp. So your back at square one flight Instructing. I am simply saying the success stories happen more frequently on the PPC route. At the end of the day Multi time and experience in real conditions are most important with most reputable companies and a BONUS if you have a few hundred hours of flight instructing behind you. I wouldn’t change how I did it for a second my Flight Instructing background helped me obtain at least two of my previous jobs. I was also lucky in being in the right place at the right time as a Flight Instructor.
Good luck to all.
Regards
Good luck to all.
Regards
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groundtoflightdeck
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It makes sense because the instructor is PIC, and therefore is ultimatley responsible for the flight. Albeit there is not always a lot of "critical descion making" like you will find in an IFR operation, you cannot make a guy PIC then limit the value of his time.
That being said I am not sure that its fair that FOs only get to count 1/2 towards an ATR when they are part of a team that is making descions that directly affect flight safety. I imagine they would be learning a lot of practical PDM and CRM concepts. Learn through osmosis right?
That being said I am not sure that its fair that FOs only get to count 1/2 towards an ATR when they are part of a team that is making descions that directly affect flight safety. I imagine they would be learning a lot of practical PDM and CRM concepts. Learn through osmosis right?
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planedriver
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Hey
How about saving your money all together and try to get on with a smaller compnay that has a bunch of planes. A company that works you through different kinds of planes. You get TT and PIC time. So you put in a year or two on the ramp. whats that over a 30 year career. 1100hrs in a 172 isnt gonna move you up quicky. I know lots of thousand hour guys who are working ramp jobs. I know lotz of 200 guys that started on turbines or heavy pistons and are now captians.
Best of luck
Best of luck
Why is it considered more valuable to instruct than sit in a two- crew, turbine aircraft over 12500lbs in actual IFR? Does anyone else think this doesn't make sense?
Because, amongst other reasons, the instructor is making command decisions.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
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Cat Driver
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" amongst other reasons, the instructor is making command decisions. "
That is true, however the "command decisions" are made in a very structured closed enviroment, whereas a FO in an IFR operation gets experience in a totally different enviorement.
How many flight instructors are allowed to think or teach outside the FTU's very rigid lesson plans?
Unfortunately as much as instructing time is valuable I personally would take the 1000 hour FO over the 1000 hour instructor on a multi engine operation.
Cat
That is true, however the "command decisions" are made in a very structured closed enviroment, whereas a FO in an IFR operation gets experience in a totally different enviorement.
How many flight instructors are allowed to think or teach outside the FTU's very rigid lesson plans?
Unfortunately as much as instructing time is valuable I personally would take the 1000 hour FO over the 1000 hour instructor on a multi engine operation.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Depends what that instructor is teaching. If they have 1000 hrs of teaching ab intio, then yeah, they're not so useful in an IFR operation. If they've been teaching multi / IFR and they've been doing it right (i.e. taking the student out in IMC), then they will be of more use that the F/O that sat for 1000 hrs and worked the radio in straight + level. Here is my reasoning. First off, the hardest parts of IFR in terms of a/c handling are the approaches and emergencies. A typical IFR training flight will have 3-4 approaches and at least one simulated emergency. How often does the IFR operator decide to do partial panel for practice on a real flight? When was the last time you saw a Georgian guy pull the right power level back on the 1900 when they were intercepting the LOC?
Second off, an instructor on a training flight in IMC is making the cricitcal decisions, monitoring the a/c and keeping a eye on the student. That my friends is a workload.
So, the upshot? Yeah, the guy that works as the SIC is going to have some useful experience, but so are some instructors, depending on what they taught.
Second off, an instructor on a training flight in IMC is making the cricitcal decisions, monitoring the a/c and keeping a eye on the student. That my friends is a workload.
So, the upshot? Yeah, the guy that works as the SIC is going to have some useful experience, but so are some instructors, depending on what they taught.
Mcrit,
I'm not knocking the value of instructing - obviously something to be learned in any type of flying. My point was that someone along the way decided instructing was twice as valuable as co-pilot time - and there is no distinction between those who instruct beginners in a 152 and those who take multi-IFR students into actual IFR. So the instructors can earn the right to be PIC of a "large" aircraft without any experience whatsoever in those, and someone with 2000+ hours in a turbine IFR operation may not qualify.
It just seems a bit arbitrary to me. They could raise the minimum hours for everyone and I wouldn't complain, but certain types of flying are being undervalued (in my opinion).
I'm not knocking the value of instructing - obviously something to be learned in any type of flying. My point was that someone along the way decided instructing was twice as valuable as co-pilot time - and there is no distinction between those who instruct beginners in a 152 and those who take multi-IFR students into actual IFR. So the instructors can earn the right to be PIC of a "large" aircraft without any experience whatsoever in those, and someone with 2000+ hours in a turbine IFR operation may not qualify.
It just seems a bit arbitrary to me. They could raise the minimum hours for everyone and I wouldn't complain, but certain types of flying are being undervalued (in my opinion).
"Sometimes the faster it gets, the less you need to know." - Gord Downie
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Cat Driver
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We all have made valid points and there is value in each type of flying.
With all due respect the following quote needs some thought put into it.
"then they will be of more use that the F/O that sat for 1000 hrs and worked the radio in straight + level. "
I would hope the days of FO just sitting working radios are long gone if not then the companies that have captains treating their FO's that way should either have their OC's suspended until they can demonstrate operational control over their flight operations or better still fire all captains who do not share the flying equally.
Having spent decades both teaching and flying IFR all over the world I still will give more weight to actual operations than straight instructing in a controlled enviroment....
So go ahead and argue with me..
Here is a suggestion, name the most difficult IFR approach you teach in Canada and the airport then I'll counter with another Country and what that approach is like.
Cat
With all due respect the following quote needs some thought put into it.
"then they will be of more use that the F/O that sat for 1000 hrs and worked the radio in straight + level. "
I would hope the days of FO just sitting working radios are long gone if not then the companies that have captains treating their FO's that way should either have their OC's suspended until they can demonstrate operational control over their flight operations or better still fire all captains who do not share the flying equally.
Having spent decades both teaching and flying IFR all over the world I still will give more weight to actual operations than straight instructing in a controlled enviroment....
So go ahead and argue with me..
Here is a suggestion, name the most difficult IFR approach you teach in Canada and the airport then I'll counter with another Country and what that approach is like.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Instructor Rating Vs. Buying my PPC
What a joke. This has got to be the king of all trolls. If not please explain how a PPC is "real experience" and how it is so much more valuable than 1000 hours of PIC time. And if you could also explain how your head came to be lodged so deep up there bootyshake , that would clear up a big mystery for me.DoughBoy wrote: don’t tell me most of you will go for the Instructor rating when you can spend the same money and get some real experience. The PPC would be better time and experience in the logbook vs. building time in the circuit.
Critical decision making? Like whether to do the full procedure ILS or cancel and go visual? Or whether to go missed at DH or bust mins? IFR most of the time is just doing what ATC says and the rest of the time it's just following the rules. If you want to learn decision making, go fly a float plane in the bush and that way you'll get the added bonus of having real hands and feet skills too.groundtoflightdeck wrote: Albeit there is not always a lot of "critical descion making" like you will find in an IFR operation
LMFAO!!peeelot wrote: So I will make you a deal give me the 5000 you are going to blow on that PPC and I will kick you in the nuts.
Quite possibly the best single sentence I've ever read on this forum.-
groundtoflightdeck
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Shimmy,
I should have clarified better. When I was talking about descion making I was thinking of ab inition intructing where the descions are a little more clear cut, all VFR and a lot in the circuit. I am just drawing on my experience in instructing though, for the guy doing ME IFR instructing, the descisions are a lot different. Especially when the student gives up procedure turn outbound in IMC! You need to be on the ball.
Cheers.
I should have clarified better. When I was talking about descion making I was thinking of ab inition intructing where the descions are a little more clear cut, all VFR and a lot in the circuit. I am just drawing on my experience in instructing though, for the guy doing ME IFR instructing, the descisions are a lot different. Especially when the student gives up procedure turn outbound in IMC! You need to be on the ball.
Cheers.
Shimmydampener, If you think acting as a PIC as a flight Instructor is more beneficial and better experience then flying in a two crew environment you are hilarious. Keep on flying there S.Damper…
As for you Lagacy. Touchy I see. I see this forum has become a one way street your opinion or the highway. That’s OK this is just fun for me. I am usually a reader of AVCanada, and have enjoyed it for the most part. I will stay away from post like this so guys like you Legacy can whine all day how crappy this industry is. Not defending paying for training/job. I am not employed with JG (I have lot friends that do and they are excellent pilots with a lot of time, and want their investment to pay off and I wish them all the Best!) So sorry to disappoint. My reasoning was for the guys looking into getting their instructor ratings VS. the guys that buy PPC’s. That is all. My point again was spend the same money and you’re better off with a PPC, your spending that money anyway. Why are you spending the money in the first place to build your resume… right? If you think that is degrading well I can’t help you there. This happens on the highest levels all over the world if you didn’t know this your blind /denial and stupid. It is a competitive industry just like any other out there outside aviation. This is called competition. This also, I know leads to pilots that are willing to work for free. TO SET THE RECORD, THESE PEOPLE TO ME ARE SCABS! What I was trying to demonstrate in my own opinion buying an Instructor rating in essence is the same as buying that PPC to get that edge. Most schools will promise you that job is yours, and to 15 other guys if you show the ‘THE MONEY”. Someone mentioned a TC requirement it is, but the school still makes the revenue. Most Instructors work for free, and the reward is not always there. That is why I stated on a previous post how important your first multi job is. And why this brings us to the PPC issue. If you were to ask me the pilots I respect most to make their way, it’s the fellas on the ramp working hard but that is not what I questioned?? Back to buying a PPC/Type rating would I? You better believe it, if I find a good deal for a type I am interested in I will get it! I love airplanes! and you know what the more types I collect the happier I am, call it a hobby. I know guys right now in training for different types that are presently employed with excellent carriers around the world, always looking to better themselves, and their passion for flying different equipment. Now does this compare you ask to the 250 hour pilot buying a PPC instead of an instructor rating you bet your a*s. Is it fair to the kid working that ramp. You bet its not! If I had a choice as a CP you don’t have to ask who I would hire. I don’t have control over the industry it has been like this as long as I have been a pilot. I seen it I went to instructing to working the ramp. I never whined, and worked hard.
As for you Lagacy. Touchy I see. I see this forum has become a one way street your opinion or the highway. That’s OK this is just fun for me. I am usually a reader of AVCanada, and have enjoyed it for the most part. I will stay away from post like this so guys like you Legacy can whine all day how crappy this industry is. Not defending paying for training/job. I am not employed with JG (I have lot friends that do and they are excellent pilots with a lot of time, and want their investment to pay off and I wish them all the Best!) So sorry to disappoint. My reasoning was for the guys looking into getting their instructor ratings VS. the guys that buy PPC’s. That is all. My point again was spend the same money and you’re better off with a PPC, your spending that money anyway. Why are you spending the money in the first place to build your resume… right? If you think that is degrading well I can’t help you there. This happens on the highest levels all over the world if you didn’t know this your blind /denial and stupid. It is a competitive industry just like any other out there outside aviation. This is called competition. This also, I know leads to pilots that are willing to work for free. TO SET THE RECORD, THESE PEOPLE TO ME ARE SCABS! What I was trying to demonstrate in my own opinion buying an Instructor rating in essence is the same as buying that PPC to get that edge. Most schools will promise you that job is yours, and to 15 other guys if you show the ‘THE MONEY”. Someone mentioned a TC requirement it is, but the school still makes the revenue. Most Instructors work for free, and the reward is not always there. That is why I stated on a previous post how important your first multi job is. And why this brings us to the PPC issue. If you were to ask me the pilots I respect most to make their way, it’s the fellas on the ramp working hard but that is not what I questioned?? Back to buying a PPC/Type rating would I? You better believe it, if I find a good deal for a type I am interested in I will get it! I love airplanes! and you know what the more types I collect the happier I am, call it a hobby. I know guys right now in training for different types that are presently employed with excellent carriers around the world, always looking to better themselves, and their passion for flying different equipment. Now does this compare you ask to the 250 hour pilot buying a PPC instead of an instructor rating you bet your a*s. Is it fair to the kid working that ramp. You bet its not! If I had a choice as a CP you don’t have to ask who I would hire. I don’t have control over the industry it has been like this as long as I have been a pilot. I seen it I went to instructing to working the ramp. I never whined, and worked hard.
