Air Canada vs Westjet

[silver star]

Hello all, I started flying commercially in 2006. I now have 2600 hours TT with an ATPL and am looking at airline career options a few years from now. I want to stay in YWG and am wondering the pros and cons (pay, schedule, security, equipment, job satisfaction, etc.) of ending up with either Air Canada vs Westjet.

[Four1oh]

can I start the responses off by recommending you try the 'search' function and do your own research as this topic has been covered off and on for the last, oh, billion years or so?

[CanadianEh]

You're not gonna get into Air Canada anytime soon, especially with that amount of hours.
Doesn't hurt to throw your name in the hat.

[sepia]

You're not gonna get into Air Canada anytime soon, especially with that amount of hours.
Doesn't hurt to throw your name in the hat.

There were people hired with less time than that last round of hiring at AC. WJ however isn't hiring with those hours currently.

[CelBatrin]

Obviously AC! Their livery is much nicer.

[ScudRunner]

. I want to stay in YWG

[silver star]

can I start the responses off by recommending you try the 'search' function and do your own research as this topic has been covered off and on for the last, oh, billion years or so?

Yeah thanks. Did that and really couldn't find SPECIFICS on AC vs Westjet living in YWG.

You're not gonna get into Air Canada anytime soon, especially with that amount of hours

Yes I understand that. That's why I said "in a few years from now".

I want to stay in YWG

Because I want to be close to family and because I lived in Vancouver for 4 years and I loved the place but I don't want to spend the rest of my life as a mortgage slave.

[CanadianEh]

Apply for both and see what happens. I'm pretty sure AC is looking to close their YWG base soon because it is only an A320 base and they don't hire for it anymore.

[Johnny#5]

Unless you know a bunch of people at Westjet or are in the space program, you're better off to focus on AC who'll probably be hiring in the new year. Besides, AC has more variety - WJ is a great company but who wants to be stuck on a 737 for 30 years?

Its not ideal, but if you want to stay in YWG then you can probably live there and commute to your base.

Try and get glass time in the mean time...

[ywgflyboy]

Apply for both and see what happens. I'm pretty sure AC is looking to close their YWG base soon because it is only an A320 base and they don't hire for it anymore.

You can always jump seat it to work. Live in YWG, and hop on the 1:50 flight to YYZ. Adds some time to your life but like you said, you're only paying a 250k mortgage compared to 600k.

[Four1oh]

WJ is a great company but who wants to be stuck on a 737 for 30 years?

Maybe there's more to life than chasing metal?

[tonysoprano]

WJ is a great company but who wants to be stuck on a 737 for 30 years?

Maybe there's more to life than chasing metal?

Speak for yourself.....

[double-j]

WJ is a great company but who wants to be stuck on a 737 for 30 years?

Maybe there's more to life than chasing metal?

Who's to say what 'metal' will be on the property in the next 30 years?


jj

[Four1oh]

WJ is a great company but who wants to be stuck on a 737 for 30 years?

Maybe there's more to life than chasing metal?

Who's to say what 'metal' will be on the property in the next 30 years?


jj

I assume nothing, even though I'm pretty sure you make a good point. And maybe sooner than you'd think! Maybe I mis-posted... I meant chasing carbon fiber, instead of metal...

[prop2jet]

If your desire is to stay in YWG and want to fly something "heavy" then be prepared for a life of commuting. It is somewhat ironic, but your home life won't be so great if you are having to spend your free time commuting. You may have the opportunity to afford cheaper realestate however you will also have the added costs of commuting, i.e., pass travel, crash pad / hotel not to mention loss of pay for those rare occasions when you find yourself unable to commute to work. With respect to AC vs. WJ, all I can say to that is don't limit your options, apply everywhere.

[5dayer]

Westjet has a Winnipeg port where you can most of your flying right out of there. I thought AC already closed their YWG port,is that true? Its also more important to think about what kind of culture you would fit into best. Not saying one is better than the other but they are 2 completely different cultures. and one company might be better for one person but not the next.

[bcflyer]

Westjet has a Winnipeg port where you can most of your flying right out of there. I thought AC already closed their YWG port,is that true? Its also more important to think about what kind of culture you would fit into best. Not saying one is better than the other but they are 2 completely different cultures. and one company might be better for one person but not the next.

AC currently has a small "base" (AC doesn't have ports...) in YWG but I wouldn't count on it being around in a few years..

[piggy]

Aw, the Canadian aviation game. Where to go? Whats the crystal ball? If you wish to stay in Canada- then the growth story is Westjet. Air Canada has some major hurdles to get over. If hired at AC, you will commute to YYZ for the majority of your career there. You will stay rgt seat in the smaller equipment , make less money, in order to have a life. You can go without a life schedule wise for only so long, esp if you have a family and commute. MAYBE 15 yrs after you hired you will be senior A320 rgt seat in yyz with a great schedule-depending what happens to AC going forward.
Most likely, AC will enter CCAA again after oil spikes well beyond $100, with the continued down-trend in the US $**as they say the trend is your friend. This downturn is not just going to turn around rgt away, this secular bear market will last for the next 5 years at least.
Wj on the other hand is not as big as AC, and is more speculative in that you dont know what the port system will be, the bases, the a/c types going forward. However, with removing JAzz's flights to smaller centers like Sandspit, and Northern quebec, etc where the government has a vested interest to ensure service, the trend IS for WJ to become the dominant domestic service in canada. This is what everyone who follows the industry has been saying for some time now. AC will not go away, thats for sure. But dont expect to fly up the list.
Good chance when the domestic growth (54 more a/c) over the next 6 years for WJ is done, a larger and/or smaller aircraft will be at or coming to WJ. You will have to commute to YYC from YWG, at the moment i'm guessing more difficult than yyz commute. but you will have some port pairings in ywg. Making $100000 rgt seat A320 at AC with the same schedule as WJ on a 737 -same money will take you a long time at AC, with a crap schedule while you wait, considering the economic situation going forward.
As you can tell i am bullish on WJ, but I cant deny the fundamentals....
Good luck, its a crap shoot

[yycflyguy]

If hired at AC, you will commute to YYZ for the majority of your career there. You will stay rgt seat in the smaller equipment , make less money, in order to have a life. You can go without a life schedule wise for only so long, esp if you have a family and commute. MAYBE 15 yrs after you hired you will be senior A320 rgt seat in yyz with a great schedule-depending what happens to AC going forward.

Not true, after less than 4 years at AC I am around half way on the YYZ A320 FO list which fairly senior (I get the days off I want and the type of flying I want, just not the super cushy long single day turns or long Caribbean layovers) I can hold YYZ EMB CA or YUL EMB CA. I could also keep the same position in YWG or YVR at a lower seniority number, so I have lots of options available.

[piggy]

Fair enough yycflyguy..but will they hire over the next 4 yrs like they have done so during your 4 yrs at AC..I think not, based simply on the outlook for AC and the economy in general. WJ will almost be doubling in size again-over the next 6 years-growth which some of will be at the expense of AC. AC has high costs issues. Wj has the opposite to this and is poised to take advantage of AC during these difficult times-even WJ is not finding it easy-low revenue environment....the airline with the lowest costs will win, and WJ is lightyears ahead of AC with their costs. AC may do just OK because Canada's economy will be strong due to resources but transboarder, intl traffic is going to continue to hurt, esp high yield pax---a lot of this AC needs to balance its high costs. What has been happening in US and to a lesser extent in Canada is legacy carriers are dropping routes even though the load factors are high as they are losing money, being squeezed by Southwest, etc. Wj will and has been doing the same up North--over time. This low growth economic environment-more so in the USA, will continue for some time and will grind any company that is weak out of the picture.

[DanJ]

How much will the WS fleet actually grow when those 54 planes come online? Surely they will be parting with some planes by then? Didn't their first -700's come in 8 years ago already?

[Jastapilot]

How much will the WS fleet actually grow when those 54 planes come online? Surely they will be parting with some planes by then? Didn't their first -700's come in 8 years ago already?

Good question. I have no idea, but I doubt we have any planes close to retirement, even in the next 8 years.

[piggy]

Well, a lot can happen in the next 6 years. Probably another recession preceded/followed by high interest rates...Very good chance of some leased aircraft being returned, with more new orders, or less, and delivery dates changed, or new embraer or 787. Depends on world economic growth, cad dollar strength, canadian consumer, what codeshares WJ gets-or if successful, h1n1..., etc, etc. The big picture is one of strength for WJ and weakness for AC

[yycflyguy]

edit... double post

[yycflyguy]

Fair enough yycflyguy..but will they hire over the next 4 yrs like they have done so during your 4 yrs at AC..I think not, based simply on the outlook for AC and the economy in general. WJ will almost be doubling in size again-over the next 6 years-growth which some of will be at the expense of AC. AC has high costs issues. Wj has the opposite to this and is poised to take advantage of AC during these difficult times-even WJ is not finding it easy-low revenue environment....the airline with the lowest costs will win, and WJ is lightyears ahead of AC with their costs. AC may do just OK because Canada's economy will be strong due to resources but transboarder, intl traffic is going to continue to hurt, esp high yield pax---a lot of this AC needs to balance its high costs. What has been happening in US and to a lesser extent in Canada is legacy carriers are dropping routes even though the load factors are high as they are losing money, being squeezed by Southwest, etc. Wj will and has been doing the same up North--over time. This low growth economic environment-more so in the USA, will continue for some time and will grind any company that is weak out of the picture.

I suspect there will be MORE hiring over the next 4 years then what I have seen with my first 4 years at AC. Retirements are peaking at around 120-140 a year for the next 5 years plus with the confirmed orders on the 787 (37 of them if I believe) I can see AC hiring 600-700 guys between 2010 and 2015.

I know the Westjetters vision is to be one of the top 5 International carriers by 2014... I don't understand why they stick to this mantra when the don't have any international widebodies, they don't have a business class market, they don't hold any gates at prestigious international hubs and outside of Canada, they don't have any kind of name recognition.

Air Canada's strength is in International and Transborder and if you are buying what Calin is selling, we will not shrink to profitability but are aggressively competing. One only needs to look at placing 767s on the YYC-HNL to compete with WJ and their plan to cap passenger loads out of YYC just to provide the same service.

One question for you. If WJ plans are to double in size (no market to support this IMHO) where will this growth occur? More domestic? More transboder? There are only so many sun spots to hit in the winter with a 737.