What Really Grinds my Gears

[Morav]

I don't care who you are, the amount of flight time in your log book, or how much local knowledge you you have. Don't bust published approach minimums! Grow some, and go missed. You're not doing anyone any favors by getting in.

For those busting minimums repeat after me me. "I am intentionally breaking the law, risking the lives of myself and fellow passengers, and I do not care of my personal responsibility to carry out a safe operation. If while performing this risky maneuver I crash, harm or kill someone feel free to sue my ass, charge me with manslaughter, or criminal negligence. If I don't ever crash, harm or kill anyone including myself, I am just another stunt pilot degrading the aviation industry, so don't bother calling me a professional."

[Boeing boy]

I haven't ever heard of a pilot "busting published minimums". I'm sure if they do though, it's obviously not a good idea to do that. This seems to have really pissed you off...because you just got right to the point. Did anything happen recently for you to randomly just throw this at us?

[ScudRunner]

How do you know they are busting minimums?

[Company Itin]

Back when I was flying out of Thompson, there was a particular company flying single engine turbines that had repeatedly told ppl that they had better moving maps than us, and that because of that they had lower minimums than we did. They also had no clue what 126.7 was used for when in uncontrolled airspace.


...And later, made a temperary, yet VERY nice contribution to the Tadoule Lake Museum of Aviation.

[Doc]

Sometimes, unfortunately it's really easy to tell if a pilot has flown below minimums on an approach. His airplane has littered the area with bent aluminum. He has "landed" somewhere other than the airport. News Flash! You have to fly below limits to actually hit the ground. I know this is NEWS to some. It shouldn't be...but it seems to be.
Stop doing it. 'nuf said.
D

[ScudRunner]

Back when I was flying out of Thompson, there was a particular company flying single engine turbines that had repeatedly told ppl that they had better moving maps than us, and that because of that they had lower minimums than we did. They also had no clue what 126.7 was used for when in uncontrolled airspace.


...And later, made a temperary, yet VERY nice contribution to the Tadoule Lake Museum of Aviation.

I use to fly for NAC Air the company your talking about, in fact based out of YTH. More than likley had beers with each other. I will say that a PC12 coming in slower than your death tube has more time and ability to react to "Runway 1 oclock " at minimums. Select Flap 40 and can easily land with far more room to spare than a Metro

I was down in Orlando at Sim when the Tadule Tabogan happened, being new to this company its always a big uh oh what have I got myself into when something like this happens. From what I learned of this accident this was a case of landing long on a downhill ice covered runway in snowy conditions during line indoc of a new captain. In fact the approach to this runway brings you into the 07 the up hill approach , the PC-12 was landing on runway 25 so definitely not a busting minimums situation. Check out my rants about NDB Circling approaches, I know Tadule lake could have been built on level terrain. Up hill in Manitoba WTF over, even in its present configuration it should and could easily have an RNAV approach to both runways.

There was nothing in our operation that allowed as you claim lower minimums, I know amongst friends at the big green machine I would joke about many things including our superior ability to hear your 15 broadcasts on 126.7 WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH PERIMETER 934 5000 miles north of Winipeg level one six thousand Winnipeg in 3 days WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh

Ya we heard you 2 minutes ago, why is your other plane doing a procedure turn down in the Ice when 500 feet above is severe clear no wonder you would have 2 inches of ice on your plane and we have nothing.

[Banjo]

I don't care who you are, the amount of flight time in your log book, or how much local knowledge you you have. Don't bust published approach minimums! Grow some, and go missed. You're not doing anyone any favors by getting in.

For those busting minimums repeat after me me. "I am intentionally breaking the law, risking the lives of myself and fellow passengers, and I do not care of my personal responsibility to carry out a safe operation. If while performing this risky maneuver I crash, harm or kill someone feel free to sue my ass, charge me with manslaughter, or criminal negligence. If I don't ever crash, harm or kill anyone including myself, I am just another stunt pilot degrading the aviation industry, so don't bother calling me a professional."
I don't care who you are, the amount of flight time in your log book, or how much local knowledge you you have. Don't bust published approach minimums! Grow some, and go missed. You're not doing anyone any favors by getting in.

For those busting minimums repeat after me me. "I am intentionally breaking the law, risking the lives of myself and fellow passengers, and I do not care of my personal responsibility to carry out a safe operation. If while performing this risky maneuver I crash, harm or kill someone feel free to sue my ass, charge me with manslaughter, or criminal negligence. If I don't ever crash, harm or kill anyone including myself, I am just another stunt pilot degrading the aviation industry, so don't bother calling me a professional."

Unless you can prove that someone has broken minimums (which you can't unless you are in the same airplane) how could you possibly hold someone accountable for breaking the law just because the weather was below minimums when you shot the approach?...that's right, you can't. Maybe once you've spent enough time around weather, especially fall weather with scattered, broken and ragged and patchy ceilings - you'll understand how they work, and how unreliable a METAR, TAF or PIREP can be. EDITED

On a side note (with complete disregard and in full expectation to highjack your ridiculous thread) quit broadcasting on 126.7 on the ground, the MF is there for a reason, and so is the en route freq.

[CarbHeat]

Reminds me of the article of the 414 in the latest Aviation Safety Letter.

[ktcanuck]

Are you talking about something like this?

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=421928fc&opt=0

It's not clear if the 700 RVR was published.

[Company Itin]

[quote]In fact the approach to this runway brings you into the 07 the up hill approach[/quote]

Infact, the approach does brings you in for 07, correct, but thats the downhill direction that slopes down at 1.56%. Which was the direction of landing. I was talking to another NAC pilot about what had happened, and they said, that a few days later, they attempted to land halfway down the runway to prove that it could be done.


And again, the 6.7 calls. The only reason they are made with reference to YWG or YIV (usually a long distance away), is because anyone at that altitude (which is in uncontrolled a/s at that distance) is usually looking at DME readouts from those points. I can use my fancy Message Enter function and get you the closest airport, but does everyone know where all of those smaller airports are on the way up north. I don't have a fancy moving map that shows me them, so If a report is made referencing them, out comes the map. Much easier to say I'm 100 north east of YWG enroute to YIV at 16000. Cause then anyone at those altitudes is probably either going or coming from that direction. And yes, its a noisy plane. We can all DEFINATLY agree on that.

[Handski]

Long time reader, first time poster here. This is a hot button issue for me tho, so I couldn't resist.

Morav - You've hit the nail on the head with this thread. Breaking minimums is a sport in Northern Ontario. Before everyone rages, please finish reading. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I spent a number of years working in all corners of this province, and breaking minimums happens every day that its possible. It's so bad at some companies, that it becomes a mark of pride to "get in", and people who miss are laughed at behind their backs. I'm not generalizing here, this isn't the way things are done for EVERY driver in the north, nor EVERY company. But some drivers at some companies (past and present) take pride in the fact that they "can get in somewhere that new guy couldn't, because they have local knowledge and know they won't hit anything".

. - I mean no disrespect.... like I said I've read this forum for ages and I find myself on your side with most discussions. We have the same ideas (and some mutual friends), but to say "How do you know people are breaking minimums" is a bit ignorant. Again, no disrespect, just want to be clear on that. I've had a least 5 pilots who flew for the company with the big sh*thawk on the tail, TELL ME TO MY FACE that they go down to 100' RAD ALT in the -12 because they know there's nothing to hit except the NDB tower. And its certainly not an epidemic thats confined to "the little blue pilatus' that could"....

Of course, none of us can prove to a certainty that someone else has broken minimums in flight. If I miss, and the next guy gets in, and the latest weather was 300' below minimums but my company wanted me to try it, OF COURSE it could have gone up 301' in the last 15 minutes. And that's not ENTIRELY sarcastic, but it is kind of a "theoretical" save for the guys who got in. It's POSSIBLE. Is it probable? Anyone who's worked in the north learns to read weather after a year or two. And you know when it's going to be fluctuating, and you know when it's soupy.

Again tho, that's not conclusive. If you want the REAL proof that guys are breaking minimums, go be a fly on the wall in crew rooms, bars, even cockpits.... places where seasoned northern pilots brag about their victories. I know full well that they're right. 100ft isn't going to kill anyone. When the minimums are 600ft, and you go a couple hundred below, you won't fly into a mountain in Northern Ontario (YXZ, YSP, AND YEL excluded). But you are a professional. Hired to do a job. It comes down to respect for the profession, do doctors cut corners to 'get the job done'? Maybe. I don't know. I certainly hope not. I wouldn't want to be operated on by a surgeon who was cutting corners, and I certainly wouldn't want my passengers to think of me with the same hesitation.

And when you do it after 10 years in the north, with an FO who's been there for 6 months, he/she is going to think its ok. And guess what, with today's turnover, that FO will be captain in another 6 months. Maybe a year with the economy, but you certainly don't sit right seat for years and years anymore. And that FO knows its ok to break mins by 200ft.... so whats another 100ft on top of that? Maybe just another 100... I can ALMOST see the lights from here. Ok 50 more.

This is a passionate subject for me. I apologize for the novel of an opening post. For the record, I flew the PC12 myself. I DO know how incredible it is, and I do know how safe it is. Now I fly for a 705 carrier.

Comments, critiques, questions welcomed. I'm a fan of debate.

Cheers

[Morav]

Sometimes, unfortunately it's really easy to tell if a pilot has flown below minimums on an approach. His airplane has littered the area with bent aluminum. He has "landed" somewhere other than the airport. News Flash! You have to fly below limits to actually hit the ground. I know this is NEWS to some. It shouldn't be...but it seems to be.
Stop doing it. 'nuf said.
D

Kind of like this guy....

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 9q0005.asp

"As he had frequently done in the past, the captain asked the first officer to set the radio altimeter minimum altitude pointer to 100 feet above ground level (agl)."

"The fact that the pilot of C-FGOI (Régionnair's chief pilot) and the crew of the aircraft following him in approach did not comply with the approach minima for Saint-Augustin Airport reveals that "going to look below the MDA or past the MAP" may be a widespread practice on the Basse Côte-Nord. The investigation established that, when the weather did not allow the runway environment to be sighted during a non-precision approach, some Régionnair pilots would descend below the MDA and use the GPWS to approach the ground."

How do you know they are busting minimums?

I never accused anyone of breaking minimums, however its foolish to believe it aint happening. Just like Handski I have talked with many pilots, and as well as flown in behind some Bigot companies to get a general consenses of what's going on. With the winter weather practically here already I thought it would be a good topic to address in hopes of getting pilots thinking about how they may be indirectly affecting the industry with their flying. Your smug remark reminds of THAT guy that says, "We never flew overweight, look it says so right here in the journey log".

[Donald]

The really pathetic thing is, the accident quoted in the post above mine is cited in the TC justification for the low-visibility approach ban.

[Invertago]

I use to fly for NAC Air the company your talking about, in fact based out of YTH. More than likley had beers with each other. I will say that a PC12 coming in slower than your death tube has more time and ability to react to "Runway 1 oclock " at minimums. Select Flap 40 and can easily land with far more room to spare than a Metro

OMG are you saying you flew SEIFR?????


Kidding, carry on

[GoinNowhereFast]

One approach into Fort Chip, MDA is 1280, there's a tower at 1267. I'd rather not blow MDA there, thanks. In Sudbury, MDA for one of the approaches is 1500. There's a tower published at 1495. Again, MDA is low enough for me.

MDA or DH is published for a reason. I'm happy enough to stay at or above it.

[Liquid Charlie]

"As he had frequently done in the past, the captain asked the first officer to set the radio altimeter minimum altitude pointer to 100 feet above ground level (agl)."

I have always felt that is where a rad alt should be set and if you are doing a cat one you are not using it anyway -- reason for setting at 100' is that's the only place you get an accurate reading since you are over the runway and it's a flat surface. I have seen several approaches where the mda light illuminates above minimums because of terrain - that just plain screws you up.

[ScudRunner]

Handski no worries,

However with regard to my question "how do you know?" I was trying to open up the discussion to point out that if your not in the cockpit of the aircraft you just don't know for certain. When I was with NAC up in Northern Manitoba which I will say was fairly isolated from the Ontario Operations, we actually use to joke it was called "NAC THOMPSON A wholly owned Subsidiary of NAC AIR LP." Anyway I can't tell you how many times we heard the big green machine missing in an airport, only to shoot the approach and land with ease. Hearing Perimeter miss no longer became a good reason to proceed to the alternate or even bother to shoot an approach. The reason for this could be many different things from approach speed and time to react safely to land or it could have been angle of site in a PC12 Vs Metro on approach, or just simply what the captain was comfortable with.

Shooting an NDB approach to mins with old school equipment as the Metro has can't be all that fun, a nice brand new quiet PC-12 that you can sit back and Relax enroute and manage the flight instead of flying it Ill tell you is a pleasure to fly and with a nice low Ref Speed and good visibility all around might just mean the difference of getting in or going missed.

I can only comment on how I ran my cockpit, in all my time up there I only did 1 missed during my NAC tour of duty, keep in mind I did a lot of sitting around at base waiting for weather and there was a quick freeze up that winter so Cold and Clear was great flying.

Don't get me wrong I know that people bust minimums I may look young but the grey hairs are their, but as I said before its hard to tell and not fair to point fingers without being there. Trust me I heard the comments and rumors, my favorite quote from a co pilot on his 2nd flight with 250 hours as we where heading into Gods River and hearing Perimeter call "in the missed off Gods Lake Narrows" he looks out the window and says "Ya it is kinda Misty out here this morning" after a stare like WTF dude from me "Oh their in the missed approach"