SMS

[lost in the north]

Looking to borrow or buy a copy of a small operator sms,want to use it to get different ideas to build my own.

[AME 283]

Why bother, although SMS is being pushed by the regulator, it has not been legislated yet. TC did a small operator project, lots of suggestions made but not implimented and the operators involved were left out in the wind

If you want good practical information go to the Australian site

[Troubleshot]

Why bother, although SMS is being pushed by the regulator, it has not been legislated yet. TC did a small operator project, lots of suggestions made but not implimented and the operators involved were left out in the wind

If you want good practical information go to the Australian site

???

[Widow]

AME 283 is right, SMS has not even been entered into the NPA's for the 703 sector yet.

Here is the projected implementation page: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/SMS/i ... tation.htm

Nonetheless, TC's guidance material, including an "SMS Development Guide for Small Ops", is here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/sms/guidance.htm

Here is similar small ops related guidance from Australia's CASA: http://www.linklearn.com.au/redflag/Saf ... System.pdf

[Troubleshot]

Well there you go then...we have been so busy trying to get this implemented into our AMO and get Transport satisfied that I have tunnel vision on this issue, lol.

I will say however trying to start an operation and choosing not to have any SMS in place maybe like giving Transport the finger (in their eyes) and may bring unwanted heat to your operation. Who knows really...good luck.

[Big Pratt]

Am I the only one that thinks this sms is a joke?
And the smaller the operator, the bigger the joke it is?

The muppet who at a meeting said "Hey, let's reduce our costs and all the hassles related to policing this transport industry and shift the responsability to the companies therefore washing our hands by creating this overhyped, overadministrated program" must be laughing in his corner office in Ottawa...

And the people that administer it? LOL
Have yet to meet a "director" that actually knows something about aviating.

Whatever, out.

BP

[C-FABH]

Australia is light years ahead, both in terms of implementation and also attitude.

Many of the posts on this forum only serve as a reminder of the above.

[sky's the limit]

Am I the only one that thinks this sms is a joke?
And the smaller the operator, the bigger the joke it is?

Nope, not at all.

Being a contractor is very interesting as I get to see quite a cross-section of employers and I think I've made my feelings on SMS clear already, but particularly for the small operator it is a disaster waiting to happen, without question. Financially, it will be very difficult initially as well and that's not something small outfits need to deal with.

TC has opened the box on something they don't truly understand and won't have the resources to properly implement/oversee - sounds like a winning formula to me.

stl

[HS-748 2A]

Being a contractor is very interesting as I get to see quite a cross-section of employers and I think I've made my feelings on SMS clear already, but particularly for the small operator it is a disaster waiting to happen, without question. Financially, it will be very difficult initially as well and that's not something small outfits need to deal with.

TC has opened the box on something they don't truly understand and won't have the resources to properly implement/oversee - sounds like a winning formula to me.

stl

STL, you are bang-on there.

No way I could have summed that up better. Companies either have a healthy attitude towards saftey, or they do not. SMS is purely redundant in the 705 world and is just another hoop to jump through in the 703 world; a total waste of resources and a distraction from the important stuff.

48

[Chuck Ellsworth]

TC giving approval of SMS paper work to an outlaw company is enabling non conformance to the rules.

The only thing worse TC could do is give them the plates from the mint so they can print their own money.

May Manatou have mercy on all your souls as this disaster starts down the tracks and goes over the cliff.

Words can not describe my relief that I got out in time.

[sky's the limit]

Another sidebar to this SMS conversation is the emergence of multiple auditing systems now - ie Contrail repeated many times over. We are seeing this more and more in the rotary world where a "consultant" comes up with a new system through which to audit your company and its SMS rating, then markets that audit system to helicopter customers and companies ultimately requiring its approval for operations.... And the best part is, people are buying into it, go figure.

Alas, with TC spending less and less on its oversight and staffing, there is a new haven for the tired, or disgruntled, or never was crowd to gravitate to - consulting - and I think it's much more lucrative.


stl

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If these " consultants " are so good at flying and or fixing airplanes how come they can't get a job and have to make their own?

[Hedley]

My tiny airport has been told it must implement TWO
SMS systems - one for the airport operation, and another
for the tiny parttime mom&pop ftu with two 172's.

It is difficult for me to understand how the overhead of
these new paperwork systems translates into improved
safety at our tiny airport.

The one thing that characterizes Canada is an apparent
lack of adult supervision in it's public administration. Like
the hideous Ontario Career College Act, SMS would appear
to be another tax imposed by an indifferent (at best)
government.

Canadians do love their taxes (of which SMS is merely
another in a long line).

Every once in a while, the airlines run a $1 fare to illustrate
all the taxes that get piled upon anyone in this country that
tries to go against the flow and actually operate a business.

I was told that Canada is a government owned and operated
enterprise.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hedley, don't rush into finishing your SMS paper work until I get there as I am starting a new enterprise that will print and supply you with your very own SMS that is dual purpose.

I am printing it on rolls of toilet paper so your company can get some value and use out of it.

[Doc]

SMS for a small company is like CYAWP?
"Cover your ass with paper"

[Big Pistons Forever]

No doc it's not CYAWP it's CTAWP (Cover Transports Ass With Paper). To make it easy to remember you can pronounce it "CEE TOP"

[Rockie]

SMS is purely redundant in the 705 world

Not really. There is a certain guy from montreal who owned a green happy face airline among others that would love SMS. Transport Canada did nothing about him even when they were responsible, but now they've handed crooked guys like him the keys to the vault. Shady operators are not limited to the small carriers.

[mmartin1872]

I personally think that SMS could be a good thing, but for the small operator, it could be "too much". As my boss says "Transport is trying to drown the small operator out with paperwork." It's basically just another job that the small operator has to fill, and its over-redundant. Its combining your MPM audit, your MCM audit, anything that goes on in your COM and your WCB all into one thing, but you will still be required to do all the paperwork for everything else. I guess it is true though. It'll make things safer, because you wont' be able to fly or work on your planes/helicopters because you'll have too much paperwork to do.

The Auditor General of CAnada, didn't have anything good to say about SMS in his May 2008 report. (google auditor general may 2008, and you should see the entire report.) Transport Canada supposedly didn't even evaluate the "risks" involved with going to a SMS program.

[Widow]

A thread about the AG's report (a she, btw, not a he), including links, is here: Sweeping condemnation of TC's approach to aviation safety

[human garbage]

I would wait on the SMS development for 702/703. There are going to have to be some major changes to implementation. TC does not have the manpower to do the certification.

I was told that even if all the inspectors from the C&BA office here dropped all their work and switched to SMS certification, they would still be 20 inspectors short. That is with no other work getting done at all. Logistically it is never going to happen.

I'm curious to see how TC is going to make this fly...

[ahramin]

I'm curious to see how TC is going to make this fly...

Easy. Make the rules but don't bother to check on compliance. Pretty normal at TC.

[Prairie Chicken]

Another sidebar to this SMS conversation is the emergence of multiple auditing systems now - ie Contrail repeated many times over. We are seeing this more and more in the rotary world where a "consultant" comes up with a new system through which to audit your company and its SMS rating, then markets that audit system to helicopter customers and companies ultimately requiring its approval for operations.... And the best part is, people are buying into it, go figure.

stl, my take is that this is what is exactly what is going to make SMS work for smaller operators. Think about it. You may be able to fool/avoid/circumvent TC, but a company won't be able to avoid these corporate auditiors if they want work. And there will be many auditors coming frequently. Smaller operators will have to get on board or get out of the game. It has already happened in other industries.

[sky's the limit]

Another sidebar to this SMS conversation is the emergence of multiple auditing systems now - ie Contrail repeated many times over. We are seeing this more and more in the rotary world where a "consultant" comes up with a new system through which to audit your company and its SMS rating, then markets that audit system to helicopter customers and companies ultimately requiring its approval for operations.... And the best part is, people are buying into it, go figure.

stl, my take is that this is what is exactly what is going to make SMS work for smaller operators. Think about it. You may be able to fool/avoid/circumvent TC, but a company won't be able to avoid these corporate auditiors if they want work. And there will be many auditors coming frequently. Smaller operators will have to get on board or get out of the game. It has already happened in other industries.

Prairie Chicken,

This is precisely the thought process that is killing small operators in this country.

These so-called audit systems are completely subjective, unregulated, arbitrary, and to be blunt, a snowjob that is turning very political indeed. The consultants are vying for one thing - money. And to get it they are selling their respective audit systems to customers as some sort of "standard" that fails to add anything to the safe operation of aircraft, or meet any real criteria.

I could be become a consultant tomorrow and design an audit system based solely on excluding certain operators from contracts.... as long as I can sell it to the ignorant large customer, I'm on easy street. This is happening already.

The other side of this issue is the financial impact to the small operator to purchase these systems in order to meet the criteria of the so-called auditors - it is snake-oil sales at it's finest.

There is one operator I won't name that has purchased an audit system that it is now marketing to all it's customers and other companies customers as a new and improved standard to which only they comply... What standard is this, and where did it come from? Your guess is as good as mine, but with this company's recent safety record, we are are trying to figure out how they are meeting ANY standard, much less this new gold standard of theirs.

I challenge you to look at this for what it really is, not as a concept that sounds good on paper. This entire SMS concept is going to have some extremely serious consequences for many small operators across the nation, many/most of whom operate very safely.

It is a sales job, and there are many people making a lot of money off of it, and TC is saving money.. you can do the math.

Just for a mental exercise, try applying this process to other things you interact with daily: housing standards, Doctors, food, automotive standards, the lot... I think you'll find that it's a pretty big mess, and the only reason this is happening is that small business 702/703 operations fly under the radar of the general public, pardon the pun.

stl

[Prairie Chicken]

Stl, I don’t disagree with the majority of what you’ve said. I just don’t see it as being such a bad thing for our industry.

I agree it will kill the small operators that are operating in an unsafe manner. Is this a bad thing? Undoubtedly some small operators will fail, and will make room for those that survive.

These so-called audit systems are completely subjective, unregulated, arbitrary, and to be blunt, a snowjob that is turning very political indeed. The consultants are vying for one thing - money. And to get it they are selling their respective audit systems to customers as some sort of "standard" that fails to add anything to the safe operation of aircraft, or meet any real criteria.

I am not familiar with the process Contrail or others are using, but have seen the same thing in other industries. I don’t disagree they are in this to make money. That’s what businesses do. Corporate customers will have to select their auditor and his standards, but the overall objective is to satisfy the corporate customer that the air operator they choose to fly with is safe. This may have been a business opportunity someone saw, or a void that TC have created and is being filled by entrepreneurs. Either way, the (corporate) customer is going to have more say in the future and I don’t believe that is a bad thing.

I’ve seen SMS work, not as a concept but as a system instituted & fully supported by management in an operating business. It took a long time to establish, plenty of both money and time, and a long time to change the old culture, but the end result was fiscally viable, met corporate expectations, and today the employees wouldn’t want to return to the bad old days.

Yes, these audits are going to cost the operator money. You might say it’s the price of the ticket to get in the game. Is it snake oil or plain old capitalism? I think it has come out of the ISO philosophy. Down the road I imagine you'll see something similar to an ISO registrar, recognized by all (hopefully including TC), that comes in and certifies your SMS manual not only meets the required standards, but that you are following your manual. (Just like TC is supposed to be doing.)

As far as the mental exercise goes, I’ve thought that one through before. I wish the standards which have been set were followed by all. That would make a level playing field. But now I’m being far too optimistic to be realistic.

Ultimately, I hope this will weed out the bad apples, but I recognize it will be a painful process for a long time. In the end though, hopefuly it will result in a safer environment for the travelling public and employees alike.

Flame away guys!

[sky's the limit]

Just because I have little else to do sitting on initial attack with no fires.... I'll try to address what you've written. No flames required, unless you're a tree....

Ultimately, I hope this will weed out the bad apples, but I recognize it will be a painful process for a long time. In the end though, hopefuly it will result in a safer environment for the travelling public and employees alike.

SMS has little to do with weeding out the "bad apples," they will now operate with little supervision and to think that accident/incident/safety reports won't be left unfilled or falsified by the "bad apples" is nothing short of optimistic, and more likely naive. If I thought for one minute SMS would result in the betterment of small operators, I'd be all in. I do not believe that however, and as I've said above I get to experience a number of operations as a contractor and the worst I've seen are the already "SMS compliant" ones. I'm not just saying that to be awkward, I promise!

I agree it will kill the small operators that are operating in an unsafe manner. Is this a bad thing? Undoubtedly some small operators will fail, and will make room for those that survive.

There can be no guarantee that it will only be the "unsafe operators" who will fall. In fact, I would submit as I have referred to above, I think we'll find it quite the opposite. SMS is more about passing on liability than anything else. Perhaps it should be re-branded "LMS...." It would make far more sense.

I don’t disagree they are in this to make money. That’s what businesses do. Corporate customers will have to select their auditor and his standards, but the overall objective is to satisfy the corporate customer that the air operator they choose to fly with is safe. This may have been a business opportunity someone saw, or a void that TC have created and is being filled by entrepreneurs. Either way, the (corporate) customer is going to have more say in the future and I don’t believe that is a bad thing.

On this I can't disagree more.

This is allowing the tail to wag the dog. A friend of mine was recently flying for a large oil company and was severely burnt when that company's employees neglected any safety precautions what-so-ever and ignited a fire. He spent lots of time in hospital as a result. Where am I going with this? Why is it that we accept people in other fields dictating how/what/where we fly and run our businesses when they wouldn't stand for that for two minutes in reverse? It's insane.

We're all so desperate to fly that we're willing to bend over and take it from anyone and everyone. The fact of the matter is, there are a great many talented, experienced people in our industry who can and do run very safe, progressive organizations - where are their voices in all this? Why has our Regulator bowed out to such an extent where they are terrified of shutting the doors of the "bad apples?" The system is broken, and SMS at a small operator level is NOT the answer to the problem, in fact it may exacerbate it.

Yes, these audits are going to cost the operator money. You might say it’s the price of the ticket to get in the game. Is it snake oil or plain old capitalism

Do you have any idea what the "price of addmission" is already? Why do you think there are endless threads on Avcanada, Pprune, Vertical, and every other aviation forum about wages, working conditions, and their appalling state? Adding to the cost of doing business is not going to help. I think the Americans have proven over the last couple of decades what unfettered Capitalism truly means... The issue of aviation safety cannot be left 100% to private industry - there are thousands of examples why from other industries.

Plain old capitalism has painted us into a corner lately unless you hadn't noticed....lol So I can't agree that the "market" should be left to dictate standards - it doesn't work. We already have CARS, and last time I looked, it seems to set a pretty reasonable standard, what on earth are we messing around with private auditors for other than TC has no money left?

Anyway, I've been staring at this screen for far too long today....

stl