How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

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CRJ-705
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How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by CRJ-705 »

just curious how long, if anyone knows, air canada will keep the 767-300er's with them? i know there getting a bunch of 787's in 2013, so are those gonna replace all the 767's, or will they keep both?
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whiteguy
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by whiteguy »

CRJ-705 wrote:just curious how long, if anyone knows, air canada will keep the 767-300er's with them? i know there getting a bunch of 787's in 2013, so are those gonna replace all the 767's, or will they keep both?
Once about a dozen 787s are on line then the '67s will start going. That was the last plan I heard but it my have changed since.
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acidgambit
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by acidgambit »

yea once the 87 comes in...67 will be going, but boeing is having difficulties with their 87 wing design. Last time i went to boeing and saw the first ever built 87 just sitting there...so beautiful. But after awhile i learn that 87's wing fell off when doing a vibration test D:

I don't know if i trust the 87 though. New generation airplane...
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rigpiggy
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by rigpiggy »

kind of like 1985, how with the a320 coming online they were retiring the DC-9s
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DanJ
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by DanJ »

rigpiggy wrote:kind of like 1985, how with the a320 coming online they were retiring the DC-9s
In that case, AC should still have 767's for 20 more years if the 787 starts arriving in 5 LOL.
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conehead
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by conehead »

rigpiggy wrote:kind of like 1985, how with the a320 coming online they were retiring the DC-9s
You mean the 727's?
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pika
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by pika »

First flight may be as early as Tuesday. Here's hoping that wing stays on.
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115B
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by 115B »

787's will replace 767's and 330's. Once the 787 fleet begins to build, the old birds will go.

Best of all, Boeing intends to certify the 787 so it can be flown by 777 crews (and vice versa) with a differences course. I trained at Boeing and the thought at that time was no simulator required; wait till Transport tries to get their mind around that one!

In any case, it will let a 787/777 pilot fly anything from Rapidairs to Sydneys. Pilots will be able to fly their preferences, and AC will save big time on crewing costs. ACPA will fight it like the Age 60 thing and end up losing in Arbitration with nothing gained for the pilot group out of the change.
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scopiton
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by scopiton »

wait till Transport tries to get their mind around that one!
if you present that as a "complicated CRM/SMS improvement concept" in a mighty complicated wordy report, they might accept it more easely-- because it would have been too complicated for them then they would approve it because they wouldn't like to show/admitt they didn't grasp the idea at all. :mrgreen:
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Lost in Saigon
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by Lost in Saigon »

115B wrote:Best of all, Boeing intends to certify the 787 so it can be flown by 777 crews (and vice versa) with a differences course.

I trained at Boeing and the thought at that time was no simulator required; wait till Transport tries to get their mind around that one!

I think it is just wishfull thinking on Boeing's part. The 787 has radically different systems. I can't see how it can share a type rating with a 777.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... e-and.html
Boeing is making a case to transfer 777 pilots to the 787 without training time in a level D full-flight simulator, but admits the FAA may not agree to that.
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Lost in Saigon
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by Lost in Saigon »

Here is a sampling of how different the 787 will be: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... _02_1.html


Electric powered 5,000 PSI Hydraulics
HYDRAULIC SYSTEM

In the 787 no-bleed architecture, the center hydraulic system is powered by two large (approximately 30 gpm at 5,000 psi) electric-motor-driven hydraulic pumps. One of the pumps runs throughout the entire flight and the other pump runs only during takeoff and landing. The higher pressure of the 787's hydraulic system enables the airplane to use smaller hydraulic components, saving both space and weight


Electric engine starting
ENGINE AND APU START

The 787's engine-start and APU-start functions are performed by extensions of the method that has been successfully used for the APU in the Next-Generation 737 airplane family. In this method, the generators are run as synchronous starting motors with the starting process being controlled by start converters. The start converters provide conditioned electrical power (adjustable voltage and adjustable frequency) to the generators during the start for optimum start performance

SIX generators! FOUR different voltages!
ELECTRICAL SYSTEM

The 787 uses an electrical system that is a hybrid voltage system consisting of the following voltage types: 235 volts alternating current (VAC), 115 VAC, 28 volts direct current (VDC), and ±270 VDC. The 115 VAC and 28 VDC voltage types are traditional, while the 235 VAC and the ±270 VDC voltage types are the consequence of the no-bleed electrical architecture that results in a greatly expanded electrical system generating twice as much electricity as previous Boeing airplane models. The system includes six generators — two per engine and two per APU —

Electric wing ice protection
WING ICE PROTECTION


The 787 utilizes an electro-thermal ice protection scheme, in which several heating blankets are bonded to the interior of the protected slat leading edges. The heating blankets may then be energized simultaneously for anti-icing protection or sequentially for deicing protection to heat the wing leading edge. This method is significantly more efficient than the traditional system because no excess energy is exhausted. As a result, the required ice protection power usage is approximately half that of pneumatic systems. Moreover, because there are no-bleed air exhaust holes, airplane drag and community noise are improved relative to the traditional pneumatic ice protection system
And there is more.......
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Jaques Strappe
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by Jaques Strappe »

115B wrote:787's will replace 767's and 330's. Once the 787 fleet begins to build, the old birds will go.

Best of all, Boeing intends to certify the 787 so it can be flown by 777 crews (and vice versa) with a differences course. I trained at Boeing and the thought at that time was no simulator required; wait till Transport tries to get their mind around that one!

In any case, it will let a 787/777 pilot fly anything from Rapidairs to Sydneys. Pilots will be able to fly their preferences, and AC will save big time on crewing costs. ACPA will fight it like the Age 60 thing and end up losing in Arbitration with nothing gained for the pilot group out of the change.
The company is actively trying to secure a 787 sim right now. There will be no common type as the training will probably be like the 767 to 777 transition course now, with a reduced number of sim sessions. It is not as simple as a 767 to 757 differences course. As previously stated, very different aircraft. I have no doubt that Boeing will try it but the regulatory agencies probably won't buy it. If TC did cave, for the safety of the traveling public, I would hope like hell that ACPA would fight it and demand proper training. However, I don't think this will be an issue.
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conehead
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by conehead »

HeHeHeHe..... I'm gonna make a fortune fixing this P.O.S. ! :lol:
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115B
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by 115B »

Regarding flying both the 787 and the 777. The differences in systems would not preclude this. The pilot doesn't care whether the anti-ice system is electric or pneumatic; the pilot selects the system at the appropriate time. The appropriate selection is "AUTO" or "ON", same as a 777. The 787 pressurisation is electric, but again the point is making the correct selection, not what that selection is controlling.

The pressure of the hydraulic system does not matter to the pilot, only whether the system is normal or abnormal at any particular time. If abnormal, follow the drill or checklist and carry on. Same with the voltage; who cares, just understand what the correct selections are and when they are to be made.

Handling will be very similar; likely more similar than the 340-300 and 340-500, which were far more different than the 330/340, but somehow we flew them all. AC had six different dash numbers of DC-8 with three different engines, four different wings, two different brake systems, three reverse systems. There were three distinct cockpits. The 787/777 will have some differences, but nothing like the DC8 series had.

AC needs a 787 Sim, because the rules would be similar to 330/340 recurrent. Sims will alternate between types, 787 this time, 777 next time.

Somehow pilots at smaller carriers fly a number of completely different types of aircraft not even manufactured by the same company. I suspect Boeing will get 777/787 CCQ and the average line pilot will have no problem with it.
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Jaques Strappe
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by Jaques Strappe »

If you were to apply the above argument, what is stopping TC from eliminating type ratings altogether and just creating one blanket "Transport Category" type rating?
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by 115B »

The 787/777 will be very close from a handling and systems operation standpoint, thus no problem for CCQ. The 320, Embraer, and 787 are too far apart for most pilots. Even 320/330 won't work for most line pilots because of the different sight picture and completely different handling characteristics due to the energy of the large aircraft. Some can handle this, but too much for most.
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by Dockjock »

So, er, a mechanic doesn't care what kind of engines an airplane has, he just has to know "change the left one"?
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115B
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by 115B »

One feature of the 787 is that the the GE and Rolls engines bolt to the same pylon and everything connects. In other words, the engine type can be changed as quickly as a normal engine change. So on a 787 the mechanic can change either type of engine using the same procedure. Hint; check the decal on the side of the cowling and make sure they are both the same.
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by c170b53 »

There's more to it than meets the eye. Safe to say pilots now are challenged to understand an aircraft's systems. They obviously know the W-5's of pushing a button and what the normal response of the aircraft/system should be, that's the job. The engineering complexity found in aircraft now makes it near impossible to understand the operation without taking time in front of a computer. Its worse for mechanics, now it seems the proprietary concerns of the manufacturers comes first, thus how something operates is often shrouded in secrecy. It hasn't helped that to save costs technical training has turned into a circus with the blessing of the MOT, mechanics now learn on the job as much as they can. Not sure how successful that strategy will be in the future as it has cost us plenty recently. To dumb down training when complexity increases might not be a smart thing for anyone in the long run.
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Re: How long will Air Canada keep their 767's?

Post by 115B »

C170B53 points out that technical training is being cut like every other kind of training.

There is a general problem these days in all technical fields. Car mechanics don't understand cars, they just change parts without understanding what is wrong. Often, they don't even change the parts properly or solve the problem at all. All this and you get to pay 80 bucks an hour, then fix what they have done wrong.

The problem is the same in little airplanes as well. Some mechanics don't do very good work; sure, the shop will do it over, but a knowledgeable owner is better off to find someone who will supervise their work, and do it themselves.

The airline needs to understand that a good mechanic is a priceless asset; as is a good pilot. money spent on Tech or Pilot training will be money saved in the long run.
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