Full body scanners/ Religion

[rigpiggy]

My wife just made an interesting observation. What would the implications legally/constitutionally be for somebody who would refuse to go through a full body scanner, but would still take a patdown, on religious grounds ie: amish, hutterite, muslim etc...?

[ywgflyboy]

Depends. If it happens in Vancouver, the RCMP will taser you.

On a serious side though. Interesting question and I wonder what recent events will do to permanent security upgrades? I have googled the topic and have found different "trial" methods. Some appear to be less invasive than others, while I was quite easily able to measure the nipple size of a subject in another.

[ywgflyboy]

Guess we will find out the answer in a few days.

Dutch officials just announced that all US bound passengers will undergo a full body scan.
CNN article: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/12 ... index.html

[Driving Rain]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/polls/poll_result.html

[bushwhacker]

If you don't want to be body scanned you have choices.

1 : STAY HOME

2 : DRIVE YOUR SELF

3: TAKE A BUS

4: TAKE A TRAIN

5: TAKE A BOAT

6: WALK

But please shut the f. up about your right to privacy.

[flyinthebug]

I saw on Canada AM today that there are only 6 functioning "full body scan" machines in service worldwide. I guess this latest scare will certainly bolster the stock value of "AAA body scanners INC". That said, I believe its the price we have to pay to secure our airplanes and the flying public. I also agree that if you feel this invades your privacy, then take a train, boat, car or walk. Its really that simple.

These machines would have revealed the powder sewen into this crazy Nigerians gitch.. and I think its a good idea to have these machines in all the major airports in the world. Like I said, the bottom line for its manufactuers will certainly go up and the costs associated will be passed on to the passengers. But were wasting billions of $$$ every year on these CATSA idiots.. Maybe if we focus on the REAL problem and its solutions we can start to keep these fanatical religious morons away from our airports.

Its not a fix-all.. But its certainly a step in the right direction.


Fly safe all.

[rigpiggy]

Maybe the solution to this is to set it to show only things of a certain density, otherwise screen remains blank

[North Shore]

How long is it going to be before one of these clowns decides to swallow an explosive charge, or have it surgically inserted?

[rigpiggy]

therein lies the rub, what is to prevent say an amputee bombmaker from filling his prosthetic, or surgically implanting, etc....any security measure that is dreamed up is only short term. Deal with the crux of the issue rather than the ancillary results. BTW what if I am asked to do a full body scan let's see millimeter wave radar, what are the cumulative effects, long term implications etc.....I am already vetted to higher standard than the CATSA folks checking me.

[MrWings]

How long is it going to be before one of these clowns decides to swallow an explosive charge, or have it surgically inserted?

It's not if but when. If you thought of it you can be sure the terrorists have thought of it as well.

Airline security so far has been reactionary. They try to prevent previous attempts/successes from happening again. Do we want to wait until an explosive mule blows himself up in mid-flight?

You want to be sure? Full body scans are going to be the only way.

Regardless, someone will find a way around this. We will never be 100% sure.

[Doc]

And they scoffed at me, when I suggested everyone fly naked! Lot cheaper than body scanners.

[Invertago]

I know security forces have prevented attacks, I know flight crews and passengers have prevented attacks, has CATSA or similar agencies prevented anything to date? I may be wrong, but I can't recall a single attack in the news that was prevented by the luggage checkers.

[MrWings]

I may be wrong, but I can't recall a single attack in the news that was prevented by the luggage checkers.

I did see them take away a full large tube of Crest sparkly gel toothpaste from a family with two young kids.

Maybe that was a disaster averted?

[C-FABH]

Airline security so far has been reactionary. They try to prevent previous attempts/successes from happening again. Do we want to wait until an explosive mule blows himself up in mid-flight?

That sounds a lot like safety in general. Eg, how many DC-10 cargo doors have to blow off before anything is done? I think tombstone technology applies to security just as well. Nobody wants to spend billions on body scanners if they can get away without them.

One tidbet I haven't heard in the past while.... some folks in the UK threatened that a body scan of somebody under the age of 18 could be considered "child pornography". Guess everyone will have to settle for a pat-down either way. A very intimate one.

[Spokes]

And they scoffed at me, when I suggested everyone fly naked! Lot cheaper than body scanners.

There are some people I just don't want to see naked.

[N181CS]

Just unreal. anyone who is determined enough cause harm probably will. There are so many other sectors of aviation that have zero security. I just want to know when I am going to get my full body armour assault rife and pistol plus my half million a year pay check to be in such a dangerous occupation where even the 90yr old guy in the wheel chair is out to get you. We always go the route or regulation over education.

[Carrier]

Quote: ".......then take a train, boat, car or walk. Its really that simple."

That works fine between the UK and Europe. There are plenty of ferries across the English Channel and North Sea. There is train service through the Channel Tunnel. Cars can travel on both the ferries and the trains.
There is now a bridge across the Bosphorus so it works between Europe and Asia. Back in the 1960s British diplomats posted to Iran or neighbouring countries would sometimes drive there from the UK, taking a ferry across the Bosphorus.
There are ferries between Europe and Africa across the Strait of Gibraltar and between Italy and Tunisia. Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman used the latter during "Long Way Down", available on DVD. There used to be ferry services between Marseille and Algiers when Algeria was still part of France. A former colleague and his wife who lived in England in the 1960s used to drive to Morocco for their annual two weeks vacation. They would take a car ferry across the English Channel, drive down through France and Spain, take a car ferry between Algeciras and Tangier or Ceuta, and enjoy several days travelling around Morocco.

The problem comes when needing to cross oceans. Obviously walking and driving are not possible and there are no trans-oceanic train services.

Flyinthebug, since you presumably did not make a glib comment without knowing that the alternatives you mentioned actually exist, perhaps you would be kind enough to post on here details of the practical and cost-effective (for ordinary working people, not just for millionaires!) boat services between Canada and the UK, Canada and South Africa and Canada and Australia. Those of us who have to make such journeys will appreciate your help.

Note that this is not just a privacy issue. Travellers' possessions - what can be taken and and how they are stowed also come into it. More important is the treatment of the customer. I am sure you have all seen signs in offices, particularly government offices, that verbal abuse, swearing, etc, will not be tolerated. The people working in those places expect to be treated with dignity. The same courtesy should be given to the travelling public! Being employed in Customs, Immigration, Security or airline check-ins should not be an opportunity for warped monsters to go on a bullying rampage at the expense of innocent travellers. Neither should it be a reason to ban those victims from travelling if they should have the temerity to complain about the abuse. It should also not be an opportunity for employees of those agencies who are in league with baggage thieves to separate travellers from their valuable possessions so that those valuables can be stolen. The rules should not be arbitrarily changed with no warning. many people have had to buy extra cases at airports over the past few days because the cases they used to travel before Christmas are now not accepted. What under the counter payments are corrupt officials and politicians receiving from the luggage industry?

Little of this has anything to do with security. It is all part of a tax and control campaign. If there was any intention to have genuine security then we would long ago have had full profiling in use. Those who are supposed to ensure the safety of the travelling public have a duty to use all practical methods. That they have failed to use profiling for so long is at least dereliction of duty. It might be worse as they might be fifth columnists deliberately refusing to employ effective methods so that our economies, freedom, basic human rights and way of life will be destroyed. That would be treason. A full public inquiry should be held into the failure of the government of Canada to introduce profiling while harassing innocent travellers with a charade of ineffective and ever-changing so-called security measures.

[flyinthebug]

Quote: ".......then take a train, boat, car or walk. Its really that simple."

Flyinthebug, since you presumably did not make a glib comment without knowing that the alternatives you mentioned actually exist, perhaps you would be kind enough to post on here details of the practical and cost-effective (for ordinary working people, not just for millionaires!) boat services between Canada and the UK, Canada and South Africa and Canada and Australia. Those of us who have to make such journeys will appreciate your help.
.

To be honest, I had to look up what "glib" meant before I could reply.
My comment was more tongue in cheek then glib. I was pointing out the obvious.
These measures will go ahead whether we like it or not. I did suggest this may be a good idea, but nothing more to suggest im a proponent of it so why attack me? I know its a huge cash grab and as you pointed out if they really were that concerned they would have implemented profiling long ago. My point is if you desire to travel overseas, you may want to start to get used to the fact that our government will implement these new "security measures" with or without your approval or mine. If you feel its an invasion of your privacy, its your right to choose to not travel by air. There are no "cost effective" alternatives as you so eloquently pointed out.

Most of todays "security" measures are a joke. These machines would have detected the 80 grams of powder the crazy Nigerian was carrying sewen into his underwear. Thats why I say its finally a step in the right direction. As we all know and is being discussed on more then one thread, its not a matter of if they will strike again, its how and when.

Fly safe all.

[MrWings]

That sounds a lot like safety in general. Eg, how many DC-10 cargo doors have to blow off before anything is done? I think tombstone technology applies to security just as well. Nobody wants to spend billions on body scanners if they can get away without them.

Not all safety.

I worked in an industrial setting during my college days. They followed a philosophy of looking at "leading indicators" to determine where safety is headed. For example, if you see a a messy worksite, that is an leading indicator that someone is likely to trip an fall. You clean up the worksite before that happens.

In aviation, an airplane full of fuel is a leading indicator of a potential bomb/missle. Yet we kept cockpit doors unlocked.

There are many other leading indicators of aircraft safety that we all see everyday.

The unsearchable body cavity of a person is one of those leading indicators. Do we wait for the typical "trailing indicator" of a person blowing himself up to bring in full body scanners? Or do we bring them in before that?

You are right, aviation security is trailing indicator driven. It is cheaper that way.

[Carrier]

Flyinthebug, I took your comment to be a serious suggestion so I apologise.
Many of us are indeed using alternative forms of transport where possible and practical. I noticed even Doc on another thread mentioned he would drive. Mrs. C and I drive within North America. Since 2001 we have reached the Atlantic coast in Maine and the Pacific coast in BC by car. There have been several other inter-provincial trips as well as journeys by road to places in the US. We would previously have gone by air for some of these trips. The air travel industry has lost our business except where there is no alternative, as in crossing oceans. Even then we ensure that we avoid passing through the USA and UK. We have had to continue travelling internationally by air because we both are immigrants with our families overseas and my employment has required it. I have worked overseas for several companies. Those of several generations descent within North America and who work only within NA can avoid the problems of air travel by using the alternatives. People who need to travel to and from other continents do not have that option.

Yes, the terrorists will not go away. What then are the authorities doing to realistically mitigate the threat? We should all be extremely upset with the knee-jerk reactions of our governments. They are doing the terrorists' work for them. The terrorists want to wreck our economies and way of life and our laughable representatives and public servants have become willing participants in this. Look at the havoc they have just caused as a result of one person managing to bring on to an aircraft and ignite something less effective than a 1950s Brock's Flashgun firework left over from Guy Fawkes Night. What a fantastic return on investment for the terrorists! We deserve better than that sort of response and we should all be angry that we are not getting it. The competent use of intelligence and profiling should have been in place years ago in Canada and the USA. This lack indicates that the previous and current governments of both are incompetents, wimps, dunces or traitors. There is no other explanation for their deliberate refusal to use the most effective security methods and precautions. They of course travel by government owned or chartered aircraft so to some extent are immune from the consequences of their non-performance. It is the ordinary citizens of both countries who are going to pay with their lives and limbs for the refusal of our governments to take all reasonable measures to protect the travelling public.

Don't think that the problem is limited to air travel. Canada and the USA are both wide open to terrorism, as demonstrated by the Encana bomber who is still at large. It is only a matter of time before bombs start exploding in buses, markets, malls, arenas and other public places. Two weeks ago a train was wrecked in Russia by a bomb and masses are being killed by roadside bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan. No security will be 100% effective. We have to intelligently employ all of the most effective methods to reduce the risk to an (unpleasantly) acceptable level that will still allow us to retain our rights, freedoms, lifestyle, economies, etc. This is not being done!

[flyinthebug]

Just a simple misunderstanding Carrier, thanks. I concur with your most recent post. Absolutely well said!
I also called the governments reaction "knee-jerk" in another thread. We dont seem to be that far apart after all

[Finn47]

I saw on Canada AM today that there are only 6 functioning "full body scan" machines in service worldwide.

According to this article, it´s 6 airports that actually already use them as a primary screening method in the US, and the number of scanners is 40, which of course is a pitiful amount considering the obvious need for more, but they are about to install and order more of them...

In the United States, 40 of these advanced imaging machines are in use in 19 airports, according to the TSA. Only in six airports are they used as a primary screening option.

An additional 150 advanced imaging machines will be installed in U.S. airports over the next year, and the TSA plans to purchase 300 more machines in 2010, the TSA's Soule said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/12/30/ai ... screening/

On the other hand, Aviation Safety Network only lists 83 incidents where a bomb was brought on board since 1949, which is a rather small percentage of flights considering there are at least 25000 arrivals every day, worldwide

[flyinhigh]

All i know is that if and when I go through one of these, I am going to put my arms up and do a little wage back and forth for the little chicky that is watching the TV monitor

[Inverted2]

You could always take a pill to relax before going through!

[bushwhacker]

Quite frightful when you read it.





Can a Muslim be a real American or Canadian?

In light of the murders at Ft. Hood by a Muslim Officer (who had sworn to defend the people, our Constitution and the United States ) this article becomes more timely and real than ever.


Can a good Muslim be a good American or Canadian?

I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia .

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.
They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans or Canadians.

Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

Pass it on Fellow Americans or Canadians. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand!