Did a search on the topic, but most responses are embedded in other non-related threads. So want to open it up here for general discussion.
Basically, I can sum up my question by the statement "we need priority for landing". My one real life situation (engine failure), unable to maintain altitude, the PIC stated that we needed priority to land. Terminal controller noticed we were sinking at a good rate, and we were at the point of picking a field to land in. My PIC declined numerous times to say the word "MAYDAY" because he figured it was less paperwork this way.
I think all pilots should watch all the Mayday episodes (although lots of us probably do already) and learn the lesson of not saying the proper words.
All regulations state the sequence of landing priority and we learn about them lots in our ground school. Maydays get to land before PAN PANs and PAN PANs get to land before normal etc. It does not mention anywhere pilots who request "priority" does it?
Guess what I am getting at is, why the hell is everyone so afraid to use the REAL words?
Maydays, and Pans
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
Re: Maydays, and Pans
Your answer is in your post. Over the years, much like the PIC in your scenario, people have been afraid to declare an emergency because they think it will cause a pile of paperwork. Or they will get into trouble by their boss and they might get fired. Or they cut some corner or bent some rule that might not even be related to the problem that is causing them the need to declare an emergency; however the MAYDAY will draw attention to that and they might catch sh*t for it. In reality, it might only be an extra 5 minutes to fill out a report with the relative facts, which might help the next guy who experiences the same thing down the road. And if your boss is more concerned about looking good versus the actual safety of his crew, passengers and equipment, they might not be the best person to be working for. And if you are trying to cover up something you didn't want exposed, perhaps you should have thought of the fact that if an emergency happened, would you want all that to come to light.
If you need priority, declare it. There shouldn't be any reason that will result in you catching grief for it, as long as all your ducks were in a row beforehand. Besides, is it better to have declared an emergency, have help standing by and not needing them or to not declare and really need the help that isn't there?
If you need priority, declare it. There shouldn't be any reason that will result in you catching grief for it, as long as all your ducks were in a row beforehand. Besides, is it better to have declared an emergency, have help standing by and not needing them or to not declare and really need the help that isn't there?
Have Pratts - Will Travel
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Cat Driver
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
I can't remember if the A320 crew that hit those birds and lost both engines used the mayday call with ATC before landing in the Hudson, anyone here remember how they declared their emergency?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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FlaplessDork
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
When I had my engine failure, I called ATC and said "Declaring an Emergency." No paperwork involved at all, just a quick call from TC. The idea was that I was already talking to someone and the radio telephone procedure was too long. My priority was finding a place to set it down rather than inform ATC were they could recover the bodies.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
3:27:32 New York TRACON: "Cactus 1549, turn left heading 2-7-0."
3:27:36 Flight 1549: "Ah, this, uh, Cactus 1539. Hit birds, we lost thrust in both engines. We're turning back towards LaGuardia.
3:27:42 New York TRACON: "OK, yea, you need to return to Laguardia. Turn left heading of uh, 2-2-0."
3:27:46 Flight 1549: 2-2-0.
3:27:49 New York TRACON: "Tower, stop your departures. We got an emergency returning."
There you go ..
The thing to notice here is that ATC made the determination that it was an emergency, and declared it as such with every other agency without the pilot himself saying so. If the pilot had started his call with the words "mayday", everyone would immediately know without specifics that there was a problem and they would be listening very closely to what was said next. No guess work, and likely no requirement to repeat what was said if it got lost in the normal clutter.
In the original posters case, an engine failure will result in an emergency declared by ATC whether or not the pilot declares it. Not wanting to do paperwork is about the lamest, dumbest and most misguided reason I can think of for not declaring an emergency when you have one.
It is not cool to say calmly "Ah houston, we have a problem" in aviation. Unlike the space program with a dedicated CapCom speaking only with one vehicle, we have harried, overworked controllers directing and speaking to many aircraft at once. If you have a problem that warrants it, start your transmission with either Mayday or PanPan as required. You will say a thousand things with those few words, you will have ATC's undivided attention to what you say next, and everybody else will shut up.
3:27:36 Flight 1549: "Ah, this, uh, Cactus 1539. Hit birds, we lost thrust in both engines. We're turning back towards LaGuardia.
3:27:42 New York TRACON: "OK, yea, you need to return to Laguardia. Turn left heading of uh, 2-2-0."
3:27:46 Flight 1549: 2-2-0.
3:27:49 New York TRACON: "Tower, stop your departures. We got an emergency returning."
There you go ..
The thing to notice here is that ATC made the determination that it was an emergency, and declared it as such with every other agency without the pilot himself saying so. If the pilot had started his call with the words "mayday", everyone would immediately know without specifics that there was a problem and they would be listening very closely to what was said next. No guess work, and likely no requirement to repeat what was said if it got lost in the normal clutter.
In the original posters case, an engine failure will result in an emergency declared by ATC whether or not the pilot declares it. Not wanting to do paperwork is about the lamest, dumbest and most misguided reason I can think of for not declaring an emergency when you have one.
It is not cool to say calmly "Ah houston, we have a problem" in aviation. Unlike the space program with a dedicated CapCom speaking only with one vehicle, we have harried, overworked controllers directing and speaking to many aircraft at once. If you have a problem that warrants it, start your transmission with either Mayday or PanPan as required. You will say a thousand things with those few words, you will have ATC's undivided attention to what you say next, and everybody else will shut up.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
Just read Sully's book and he DID say MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY. He was stepped on by TRACON giving him the heading instructions at the same time so no one heard it. It was picked up on the CVR.Rockie wrote:3:27:32 New York TRACON: "Cactus 1549, turn left heading 2-7-0."
3:27:36 Flight 1549: "Ah, this, uh, Cactus 1539. Hit birds, we lost thrust in both engines. We're turning back towards LaGuardia.
3:27:42 New York TRACON: "OK, yea, you need to return to Laguardia. Turn left heading of uh, 2-2-0."
3:27:46 Flight 1549: 2-2-0.
3:27:49 New York TRACON: "Tower, stop your departures. We got an emergency returning."
There you go ..
The thing to notice here is that ATC made the determination that it was an emergency, and declared it as such with every other agency without the pilot himself saying so. If the pilot had started his call with the words "mayday", everyone would immediately know without specifics that there was a problem and they would be listening very closely to what was said next. No guess work, and likely no requirement to repeat what was said if it got lost in the normal clutter.
In the original posters case, an engine failure will result in an emergency declared by ATC whether or not the pilot declares it. Not wanting to do paperwork is about the lamest, dumbest and most misguided reason I can think of for not declaring an emergency when you have one.
It is not cool to say calmly "Ah houston, we have a problem" in aviation. Unlike the space program with a dedicated CapCom speaking only with one vehicle, we have harried, overworked controllers directing and speaking to many aircraft at once. If you have a problem that warrants it, start your transmission with either Mayday or PanPan as required. You will say a thousand things with those few words, you will have ATC's undivided attention to what you say next, and everybody else will shut up.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
I've made a Pan and an emergency call from the right seat and a Mayday from the left.
The Pan was in IMC because no French station would reply, instead on 121.5 I got: "Golf Bravo Delta Sierra November this is London West Drayton, transmit for DF". They gave me a steer, handed me over to Lydd Approach and that was the end of that.
I learned another limit on how far I should let the left seat pilot go.
The Mayday followed a dive to Vne when the stick suddenly sprung back in my hand, I looked behind to see fabric above the tailplane. I was doing the CxA renewal test flight as prescribed by the CAA (I've never seen this done in Canada, but it had to be done every three years and the aeroplane had to meet the POH/AFM performance standards. ROC was always a problem!).
I landed the aeroplane in a field and an RAF helicopter came over for a look. No further action.
In Britain they want you to make an emergency call.
The emergency call was made here.
There was no time for the word "Mayday"!
We were headed for a field one mile east of Delta and I took the radio while the much more experienced owner in the left seat sorted the aeroplane out.
All I had time for was "Golf India Juliette lost both engines going into field one mile east of Delta Airpark".
My attention was taken as the gear was selected down; "Bad idea that ****" I said!
Now we were going into the mud...
The s**t hit the fan after that one, and being an instructor put me in for a lot of criticism. I learned that a flying instructor here can never be a passenger. If I sit in the right seat of anything I can legally fly I am assumed to be PIC or as near as damn it!
Perhaps some airlines are right, flying instructors do not (should not?) make good co-pilots.
I had an engine failure in a Cherokee going out of Langley, a valve cam follower had broken up and was destroying the inside of that Lycoming engine. Being not so robust as a Gipsy I nursed that fragile engine back to Langley and thought nothing of it until Transport Canada phoned me about it! I wrote a full report.
I had not made a Pan call, just turned around (2,500 feet) and went back.
I learned that paperwork is very very important here.
I learn a lot from others... A report on a Luscombe ground loop in the USA led to the FAA inspector going through all the paperwork the instructor-owner had on his aeroplane. The inspector insisted on flying with the instructor and taking the left seat which had the brakes. The aeroplane was written off when the inspector lost control.
In the UK the CAA took a diametrically opposite point of view to their North American cousins, they wanted pilots to not consider whether to make that Pan/Mayday call, just make it!
The Pan was in IMC because no French station would reply, instead on 121.5 I got: "Golf Bravo Delta Sierra November this is London West Drayton, transmit for DF". They gave me a steer, handed me over to Lydd Approach and that was the end of that.
I learned another limit on how far I should let the left seat pilot go.
The Mayday followed a dive to Vne when the stick suddenly sprung back in my hand, I looked behind to see fabric above the tailplane. I was doing the CxA renewal test flight as prescribed by the CAA (I've never seen this done in Canada, but it had to be done every three years and the aeroplane had to meet the POH/AFM performance standards. ROC was always a problem!).
I landed the aeroplane in a field and an RAF helicopter came over for a look. No further action.
In Britain they want you to make an emergency call.
The emergency call was made here.
There was no time for the word "Mayday"!
We were headed for a field one mile east of Delta and I took the radio while the much more experienced owner in the left seat sorted the aeroplane out.
All I had time for was "Golf India Juliette lost both engines going into field one mile east of Delta Airpark".
My attention was taken as the gear was selected down; "Bad idea that ****" I said!
Now we were going into the mud...
The s**t hit the fan after that one, and being an instructor put me in for a lot of criticism. I learned that a flying instructor here can never be a passenger. If I sit in the right seat of anything I can legally fly I am assumed to be PIC or as near as damn it!
Perhaps some airlines are right, flying instructors do not (should not?) make good co-pilots.
I had an engine failure in a Cherokee going out of Langley, a valve cam follower had broken up and was destroying the inside of that Lycoming engine. Being not so robust as a Gipsy I nursed that fragile engine back to Langley and thought nothing of it until Transport Canada phoned me about it! I wrote a full report.
I had not made a Pan call, just turned around (2,500 feet) and went back.
I learned that paperwork is very very important here.
I learn a lot from others... A report on a Luscombe ground loop in the USA led to the FAA inspector going through all the paperwork the instructor-owner had on his aeroplane. The inspector insisted on flying with the instructor and taking the left seat which had the brakes. The aeroplane was written off when the inspector lost control.
In the UK the CAA took a diametrically opposite point of view to their North American cousins, they wanted pilots to not consider whether to make that Pan/Mayday call, just make it!
Re: Maydays, and Pans
I also had a problem in a Cessna 152.
The RPM wouldn't go below 1,000 RPM at idle, I can live with that but strike one!
As I lifted off a small cloud of smoke went through the cockpit, strike two, there won't be a strike three!
I requested a low level circuit to return for landing. Tower asked me why, I replied "smoke in the cockpit" and they called out the fire brigade.
They needn't have, it was probably oil on the exhaust coming through the cabin heat.
No report requested that time, nothing further heard, but I decided not to fly that outfit's poorly maintained aircraft again.
Paul offered me one of his Cessna 150's which were better maintained and I did my flight successfully.
This was a few years ago, and that school which had better maintained aircraft at the time was absorbed by an airline and together they went out of business as that airline lost everyone's confidence through a series of accidents and incidents.
I think that flying in Canada is somewhat more hazardous than in many parts of this world.
We should all be prepared for the Pan or Mayday call
I once flew right seat in a commercially operated twin.
The captain was about to call a ground station on a frequency from the map, I told him "they'll want you to call them on ***.*", I had flown in that area several times recently.
He called them on the frequency on the map and they told him to call the frequency I had already suggested! The co-pilot is a nuisance what does he know?
The landing at our destination was awful, I could not say anything, he's the boss and what do I know?
So instructors who see and correct mistakes all the time perhaps should not be copilots.
The RPM wouldn't go below 1,000 RPM at idle, I can live with that but strike one!
As I lifted off a small cloud of smoke went through the cockpit, strike two, there won't be a strike three!
I requested a low level circuit to return for landing. Tower asked me why, I replied "smoke in the cockpit" and they called out the fire brigade.
They needn't have, it was probably oil on the exhaust coming through the cabin heat.
No report requested that time, nothing further heard, but I decided not to fly that outfit's poorly maintained aircraft again.
Paul offered me one of his Cessna 150's which were better maintained and I did my flight successfully.
This was a few years ago, and that school which had better maintained aircraft at the time was absorbed by an airline and together they went out of business as that airline lost everyone's confidence through a series of accidents and incidents.
I think that flying in Canada is somewhat more hazardous than in many parts of this world.
We should all be prepared for the Pan or Mayday call
I'll qualify this.Perhaps some airlines are right, flying instructors do not (should not?) make good co-pilots.
I once flew right seat in a commercially operated twin.
The captain was about to call a ground station on a frequency from the map, I told him "they'll want you to call them on ***.*", I had flown in that area several times recently.
He called them on the frequency on the map and they told him to call the frequency I had already suggested! The co-pilot is a nuisance what does he know?
The landing at our destination was awful, I could not say anything, he's the boss and what do I know?
So instructors who see and correct mistakes all the time perhaps should not be copilots.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
Bottom line - we practice standard phraseology in every other aspect of our flying, why do we hesitate to use it in an emergency?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Cat Driver
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
Calling a Mayday when you believe you have one is just good airmanship because it is a positive heads up to everyone on frequency.
Don't forget to squalk 777 as soon as time permits.
Better to have used the word and the code than wish you had.
Don't forget to squalk 777 as soon as time permits.
Better to have used the word and the code than wish you had.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
Today's transponders have 4 numbers CatCat Driver wrote:Calling a Mayday when you believe you have one is just good airmanship because it is a positive heads up to everyone on frequency.
Don't forget to squalk 777 as soon as time permits.
Better to have used the word and the code than wish you had.
Going for the deck at corner
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The Old Fogducker
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
I'll give you answer so commonly heard when conducting PPCs ... What? ... When did they change that?AuxBatOn wrote: Today's transponders have 4 numbers Cat
OFD
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Cat Driver
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
Got me again.....gotta be more careful and triple check my posts for errors from now on....
But that was a good catch.
But that was a good catch.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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invertedattitude
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
Just about every "european" carrier I've worked usually declares a "pan pan" (Haven't had a mayday yet), The American/Canadian guys will usually say "We're declaring an emergency"
Either way, I as a controller don't care, as was said before we have the ability and the duty to consider an airplane in an emergency condition even if the flight hasn't said it themselves.
Either way, I as a controller don't care, as was said before we have the ability and the duty to consider an airplane in an emergency condition even if the flight hasn't said it themselves.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
hmm, "Declaring an Emergency" vs. MAYDAY... Avianca 52 comes to mind.
ATC is there for your when you say "MAYDAY". Don't try and be a hero, just say the words.
ATC is there for your when you say "MAYDAY". Don't try and be a hero, just say the words.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
Get used to saying it because it works in North America for the reasons already stated. Outside North America there are many places that will have no idea what you're talking about if you say "I am declaring an emergency" and you will waste precious time explaining it to them.
Controllers in many countries only understand standard phraseology, so use it.
Controllers in many countries only understand standard phraseology, so use it.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
I think ATC should start ignoring anything other than proper phraseology. Of course that would be a stupid idea, I am just being a smartass. But I do think it is time we start talking on the radio like we are supposed to. Phraseology was developed for a reason.
Re: Maydays, and Pans
On the topic of paperwork, if you are operating an aeroplane over 12,500 lbs, the following applies with respect to reporting to the TSB:
(k) a crew member declares an emergency or indicates any degree of emergency that requires priority handling by an air traffic control unit or the standing by of emergency response services,
(k) a crew member declares an emergency or indicates any degree of emergency that requires priority handling by an air traffic control unit or the standing by of emergency response services,
Re: Maydays, and Pans
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Maydays, and Pans
MichaelP, this is the first time I have read one of your posts and thought you were off the mark. If you have enough smoke in the cockpit that you are doing a non-standard circuit(low level) to come back to land, you have an emergency. Take the trucks, they probably have nothing better to do anyway. Maybe it was just oil on the exhaust comming in from the cabin heat, and maybe it was not. If it was nothing, the trucks go back to the barn no foul. But I would hate to have a fire and have the trucks nowhere to be found.I requested a low level circuit to return for landing. Tower asked me why, I replied "smoke in the cockpit" and they called out the fire brigade.
They needn't have, it was probably oil on the exhaust coming through the cabin heat.
Wahunga!
Re: Maydays, and Pans
I imagine most here would agree but I was taught to fly the plane first and worry about the radio work last. If I were loosing an engine I would say "Mayday".
Re: Maydays, and Pans
The thomson B757 aircraft departing manchester who had a bird strike in his number 2 engine said "mayday."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6njbTXw ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6njbTXw ... re=related
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ZBB118.10
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Re: Maydays, and Pans
Code: Select all
Don't forget to squalk 777 as soon as time permits.
_______________________________________
A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
Re: Maydays, and Pans
Sometimes things don't always go according to plan when you call MayDay. (for a giggle)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb7UAdkgV8o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb7UAdkgV8o
Re: Maydays, and Pans
I've done PAN PAN now twice. Once when I had an aileron spade failure and was not sure what the heck was going on. They called out the emergency response folks and I landed and canceleld them on the roll-out .. very little paper work, just a phone conversation with TC.
The other one was an engine failure in a spin that would not restart. I was above an airport and there were 2 aircraft in the circut , one on final, they both cleared a path for me to glide back to a landing .. bloody engine started again on final .. just to be annoying no doubt.
I'm a big chicken so at the first sign of smoke/fire or anything truely horrid I'd be yelling MAYDAY pretty loud .. got to get something for all the taxes we pay
Last summer the VWOC P51 Pilot declared PAN PAN with an oil leak obscuring his vision. Was very professional to listen to because he kept describing what was happening presumably for the record just incase. Turned out it was a dip stick not clipped down properly, made a big mess though.
Peter
The other one was an engine failure in a spin that would not restart. I was above an airport and there were 2 aircraft in the circut , one on final, they both cleared a path for me to glide back to a landing .. bloody engine started again on final .. just to be annoying no doubt.
I'm a big chicken so at the first sign of smoke/fire or anything truely horrid I'd be yelling MAYDAY pretty loud .. got to get something for all the taxes we pay
Last summer the VWOC P51 Pilot declared PAN PAN with an oil leak obscuring his vision. Was very professional to listen to because he kept describing what was happening presumably for the record just incase. Turned out it was a dip stick not clipped down properly, made a big mess though.
Peter
