Third World Maintenance

[planemikey]

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42431c73&opt=0

A fine example of third world maintenance . Thanks for being Loyal to your country TransAt!!!

[Strega]

Im not sure if you realize this, but Brazils heavy industry is much more developed than Canadas'

[kilpicki]

I watched a show on re cycle of the juice box Tetra pack. Brazil was at the time the only place in the world to pull the Al out of the mix with a fairly hi tech method.--- for what its worth.

[Quick Disconnect]

Mr strega would you care to enlighting us as to why you have come to that conclusion.It is because alot of CA,US,EU companies have dumped there maint down in Brazil for cheaper maint thus providing them with the expertise while screwing over the NA industry that actually( populice) flies on them pays Nav fees,security fees etc takes away jobs from us .Maybe if we stopped doing this and kept the monies up here where it belongs not farmed out the North American industry and explained to the some what ( FLAMED FOR THIS) unions to be a BIT more productive it would help.I realize that everyone deserves a fair wage but this transfer of third world jobs has to stop some time our there will be zip left for us.Trust me on this i know quite a few people in this biz from Brazil that think the aviation sector sucks down there.Question for you do you think that we should be sending work out of country and then turnaround a give tax payers monies away.

[c170b53]

First off, the airline industry has gone third world everywhere and worse. Everyone is operating in an environment where resources are channeled to keep the airline running, no different than the guy driving a clapped out rusty Honda Civic down the highway. The driver knows he needs insurance (minimum), a license, gas and the rest can wait as long as the vehicle gets to the destination. The airlines have divested themselves from tasks associated with maintenance by outsourcing, freeing up capital tied up in facilities, parts, airworthiness oversight, training and personnel. Although it works in the short term there's costs associated with these practices with grounded aircraft, disrupted schedules while aircraft wait for repairs. As this business winds down, airlines have to put more resources into their management structure to acquire parts and maintenance outside of their immediate control. Of course it is cheaper to acquire staff that do not require licensing to oversee these tasks than those with formal education, The government has been more focused on the industries associated with airports and have left the airlines to self govern themselves. The companies that make it their business to pool parts and provide them to the airlines, may not be as responsive to a situation unless its profitable to them. The companies providing on call maintenance provide the basics which are profitable to them but have little resources to provide maintenance outside of Gas bar requirements.
There's a reason why its called the The Greatest Race to the Bottom.
What does this mean? It means Pilots being given questionable advice by their maintenance centres which are focused on schedules. It means mechanics unable to complete tasks because there's no parts or equipment. It means finding a fall guy when things go wrong.
Make sure you're not that guy and enjoy your $250 trip to Hawaii.

[bombardierfixer]

Does this mean we can get jobs in Brazil? I think I'd rather have days off on the copa cabana beach then sandy beach in feb

[Ballsssssss]

I wouldn't call Brazil 3rd world by any means. Go to the tool crib and get one of those head-up-your-ass removal tools. It's right beside the tissues.

[billy ray valintine]

Im not sure if you realize this, but Brazils heavy industry is much more developed than Canadas'

prove it!
the only reason canadian companies go there for heavy checks is because it's CHEAP!
if they were so good,maybe transat's A/C would have stayed on the apron to do run-ups
instead of woods.
keep talkin' them up,and we'll all be out of work.

brv

[glidepath]

I think all you should know maybe the reason companies are going south is cause they do a better job than you here? I work in this industry and the Canadian born workers here really need to step up their game if they want to compete in a world market.

[shannon]

Brazil is definitely not third world.
Their aerospace sector is our strongest competitor.
Their work is excellent.
Its an economic and cultural entity who is getting stronger all the time.
If Canadians want the work we have to distinguish ourselves with quality and hard work. Its a fact that sometimes we don't.

[Strega]

A+ for shannon

[bombardierfixer]

I think Shannon is right. Our sense of entitlement is starting to bite us in our collective butts. I think the auto manufacturing industry is a prime example. A .95 cent dollar dosn't help either. Sorry, but the embraer is a nice plane, I've never looked under the hood of one except the 120 but its a sharp little bird!

[Pat Richard]

If Canadians want the work we have to distinguish ourselves with quality and hard work. Its a fact that sometimes we don't

Would you like to get into a conversation about the respective cost's of living? How about people paying double the hourly rate of most mro's ,to get their cars fixed? Bus mechanics making the same as a widebody crew chief? How much harder(or do you mean "make less hourly") would you like us to "work"? Give an example of where we need to improve if you are talking "quality and hard work."

I hope what happens is more of the experienced guys continue to walk, and people with your idealistic views will be left to deal with the resulting "You get what you pay for." utopia, which will be the future of aircraft maintenance in Canada.

If you think we are all spoiled children, I sincerely hope you, and those who share your views, experience the worst of what is coming.

If you are a pilot spouting this shit, I hope you experiencethe result of this(shoddy foreign maintenance) in the most intimate way.

[c170b53]

BBF EMB a good plane?.....Its a very interesting one. The Diesel paid my first mortgage, these might make my retirement a blast. The manuals and the paperwork for the plane are horrible. The training materials were translated from Portuguese to German then to English. Most of the material is garbage because of differences and mods added during assembly. If you want to try to find out the basics of operation, the ssm will show a box with wires coming from it to a component but will not show the logic for the operation, nor will the AMM part I. You have to make your best guess as to how things work. Who every heard of an APU start in flight causing a roll back of the mains? Never until team Brazil took to the skies. A possibility of a water leak in the fuselage is a no go. It just goes on and on.
What Brazil does have is a large young population and thus its a growing economy. We've sold our resources to pay down our debt only to vote in a new bunch who are going into debt again, how easily the young are fooled. We had heavy industries in Canada, now we have 7-11, Walmart, Sears, and China Tire selling Chinese junk.
I've only worked the big stuff and the little stuff, not the in between so my slant will be different. I've seen a few posts that characterize big jet mechanics as idiots. Yep we got them but so does every industry, after all we need some entertainment as well. As for the young guys, yes they are different as they have tired of being bullshitted to quicker than we did. At least they are taking care of themselves first rather than listening to a promise to do better for them in the future. For many of us the work, that promise, is being sent elsewhere and the work isn't pretty when it comes back.

[bombardierfixer]

Pat I'm maintenance, I've done 3rd party, contract and now airline. I just get tired of the guys who sit there and bitch. Only problems no solutions to the problem or their personal problems. If you wish ill will on me just because I don't share a jaundiced view and hate my job then fine, we disagree.

Its a screwed up industry where a 35 dollar ticket seems like a good idea, but this is what I do now, I'm no ones bitch. My tool box has wheels and if I get shit on too many times I'll walk.

[Pat Richard]

The only "ill will" I'm wishing is more of what is already happening with regards to a/c having maintenance done out of country.
More mechanical delays at airports and higher costs to airlines that send their checks south, and have to fix them, with Canadians, when they get back.

Sounds like you support what is going on, for reasons I can't begin to understand, and honestly I'm past the point of trying to.

here's to the future

[iflyforpie]

Unfortunately it all comes down to dollars. Anybody who shops at Wal Mart for the made in China stuff that is on consignment from the supplier is guilty of the same thing. It is happening with everything that involves manual labor and portable technology. Somebody isn't going to drive their Cadillac down to Brazil or even Mexico to get a deal on maintenance. But when the difference in price can be several million dollars, it might even be worth a few screwup (because these happen in Canada anyways).

Not saying I agree with it.

[bombardierfixer]

I don't agree, like pie said it just comes down to the buck. It just doesn't surprise me. Time will tell and hopefully only OTP will be affected and a ditch isn't dug with a plane.

[c170b53]

Just look at the last safety letter and the EMB rudder actuator. MOT are monitoring things.....yeah right, Its the buck and only the buck that matters not millions. And you're right anyone can make a mistake, but the high-wire act doesn't have the same safety net as it once did.

[brownbear]

EMB a good plane? I would not go that far as to say that. Have a look at the issues on the 170's and 190's. Slats/Flaps and hydraulics constantly. If you look at the avherald.com and type in these planes you will be surprised about the quality.

Now why should we allow Canadian airlines to take their planes outside of NAFTA? We shouldn't at all. Our standard of living is dieing fast. Their standard outside of NAFTA is growing quickly and eventually we will meet in the middle. But by then our industry will be fawked and the not reversible.

Brazil, Ecuador, El Salvador... who cares. Its not here. Is their maintenance up to standard? I doubt it myself. But if the checksheets are dotted, no one will know till it goes down.

I wonder if in Brazil they have to follow the righteous path of SMS?

If Canada want to protect it's citizens and ensure we have a solid economy it is going to have to look inside and protect the jobs here. Not allow globalization to happen. Globalization means everything will equal out to be the same. We will be poor they will be rich. Only the mega business models get rich off globalization.

[shannon]

You can't use government regulation to protect these jobs. If you do then other states will retaliate with trade tariffs or regulations. Then our manufacturing sector suffers. Bombardier, Diamond, Viking...

Germany, Japan, Sweden. All competed in a world market for automobiles and these countries did fantastically though hard work and quality. Some people still purchased junk cheap cars but by offering a better quality product they didn't have to compete on price. Now since they started outsourcing their quality has suffered. They will return to what works. That is quality. If our country wants to compete and maintain a high standard of life we need to innovate and improve our product. The way our government can help is to fund research and education.

Pat Richard, I have read numerous posts where you decry the failings and poor quality of AMOs and the situation that precipitated it. Yet when it is suggested that Canada needs to improve the quality of its product you balk. Which is it. Are we top notch quality or do we need improvement. We have to honestly self assess if we wish to improve our lot.

If we don't then on what point will we compete.

[Pat Richard]

Pat Richard, I have read numerous posts where you decry the failings and poor quality of AMOs and the situation that precipitated it. Yet when it is suggested that Canada needs to improve the quality of its product you balk. Which is it. Are we top notch quality or do we need improvement. We have to honestly self assess if we wish to improve our lot.

Never been accused of sending mixed messages before....

Ok, I'll say this one last time, because if you've read my posts, you sure as hell did not comprehend what you read.

THE INDUSTRY, AS A WHOLE, DOES NOT PAY ENOUGH TO ATTRACT AND KEEP EXPERIENCED AME'S

As for top notch quality, are you implying the service down south is such? Most everyone, including owners, will say it's mostly cheaper. Besides what I've seen here, I've never heard anybody describe maintenance from there as "top notch" Are you, and other's here, suggesting we do the same work,for the same quoted prices as down south?

What you can't seem to grasp is the reality that what is left of quality talent in Canada is leaving because of the crap treatment.Will quality suffer? Has quality suffered? Duh.... You just conveniently skipped the cause, and went straight to effect.

Your reasoning seems based more on idealism, as I have yet to read anything in your posts that give examples of why quality is lacking in canadian maintenance. Are we just spoiled and lazy?

This industry can go to hell using the express lane, if it is going to ask good, experienced AME's for more, without increasing compensation, improving work conditions, etc.

But it's already doing that.

Come talk to me when you need you're car serviced.... , and I'll show you what top notch quality really costs

hope that wasn't too confusing for you.

*edit*
With regards to stepping up to be "top notch", here's what we are up against

While ACTS won't disclose salaries, news media reports have said an entry-level mechanic at Aeroman earns about $4,500 a year. By contrast, the starting salary for a Canadian mechanic is $44,000 a year, said Carlos DaCosta,

The rest of the article is here

http://pamablog.typepad.com/pama/2008/0 ... ainte.html

We need to step up, people.

More like fall way the hell down the gutter.

[brownbear]

You can't use government regulation to protect these jobs. If you do then other states will retaliate with trade tariffs or regulations. Then our manufacturing sector suffers. Bombardier, Diamond, Viking...

Really???

So what is the point of not allowing open skies then? So we regulate who can fly here, but feel they make the grade with maintenance.

So if maintenance is going to be done in South America and since you feel globlaization is all that and the Germans seem so successful might as well let everyone fly here. I'd like to buy an even cheaper ticket on Air Ecuador flying from Calgary to Winnipeg. If Air Canada can't compete, then too bad for them.


I don't agree to this. We use globalization only when it suits people best. Same with Capitolism and democracy. Very seldom it is for the best interest of the masses. So big business get to globalize to their profits, but why can't canadian gets a cheaper ticket on Southwest flying in Canada? Cause it would hurt our businesses.

Selling products outside your country is fine, when we import outside products they need to have tariffs to equal the playing field. Simple as that. What to take your plane to South America outside of NAFTA, okay but there should be a tarriff paid to canada. Cause I can guarantee they are losing jobs because if it here.

[Grease Nipple]

I have worked in several poorer countries and what I found is that the mechanics in these countries have the same knowledge as the mechanics here. The problem is they are unwilling to put their jobs on the line by saying no to management. They will take shortcuts to
ensure the aircraft goes out the door on time and on budget. When management says get it done or we will get someone else who can get it done they start signing stuff off. They make good money compared to most others in their countries and are unwilling to risk their jobs when unemployment is very high. Of course the paperwork is all in order regardless of if the inspection or test was actually done so it all looks good and the bean counters are happy.

[shannon]

So are you saying that we can't compete? That we can't improve our game? We need our government to bail us out, to sacrifice export jobs for maintenance jobs?

We don't have a large enough domestic market for new bombardier products so you had better get used to working on Brazilian jets not Canadian if we adopt a hardcore protectionist model.

We will leave the true engineering to others while we work as mechanics.

I'm not suggesting that Canada's workforce puts out a product that is worse than others, but what I am most definitely saying is that if we want to compete in the new economic reality we have to compete on quality, because thats the only way we can. If Brazil's quality is seen by others as comparable to ours and we're more expensive who do you think operators will go to.

If we are going to do that we have to improve, continue improving and communicate it to the world.

Pat, I realize that these economic realities are over your head, so I'll end here on this subject.

Sorry brown bear? Are you ESL?

Grease Nipple, do you really think that the situation you described does not exist all over Canada?