Double Engine Failure CADOR - Anyone know about this?

[pilotman15]

User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2010-03-04
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: The privately-registered (foreign) XXXXX(name removed) Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche aircraft (C-FINY) was on a local VFR training flight from London International Airport (CYXU). The pilot declared an emergency due to (initially) an engine failure (subsequently a double engine failure). The aircraft was cleared to land runway 09 but was unable to make the runway and, after crossing the airport perimeter fence, landed 300 feet short of the threshold of runway 09. ARFF services equipment dispatched. Ops. impact -- unknown

[Stevo226]

Training flight, both pilots ok. the gear collapsed on touchdown but it looks to be more or less intact still. The double engine failure call was made about a minute after the single engine failure. begin speculation!

[Pratt X 3]

Pilot, flight instructor unhurt after crash short of runway
FLIGHT FRIGHT: The Comanche lost power in both engines as it approached London airport
By JOE BELANGER, THE LONDON FREE PRESS

It was a tow job that might have left gawkers with motion sickness. Hauled away from the London International Airport Thursday was a small plane loaded atop a flatbed truck, the arresting sight the remains of a crash landing the night before. A pilot and flight instructor walked away unhurt after their twin-engine plane crashed just short of the runway at London International Airport. The London-based Comanche lost power in both engines as it approached the runway around 7:30 p.m. Wednesday, said airport president and chief executive Steve Baker. "The pilot tried to extend the flight as long as he could, but just before the runway he lost power and lost lift and crashed," said Baker. The plane fell to the ground on its landing gear about the length of a football field short of the runway. The Transportation Safety Board is investigating. Baker said the plane still had fuel when it crashed.

Joe Belanger is a Free Press reporter.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2010 ... 07441.html

[PC12flyer]

Is the Comanche fuel injected? If not I'd speculate carb icing... but I'm not an engineer and its been years since I flew an airplane that had a carburator.

[Hedley]

Double engine failures (dunno if that's really the cause of this
or not) are almost always caused by fuel exhaustion or
contamination.

Remember a few years back in California some 100LL got
contaminated with jet A, and twins were falling out of the
sky?

[FlaplessDork]

Is the Comanche fuel injected? If not I'd speculate carb icing... but I'm not an engineer and its been years since I flew an airplane that had a carburator.

Yep. IO-320-B's are standard.

Its nearly impossible to check for contamination when draining the tanks on the Comanche. The engines also tend to quit with low fuel in a prolonged sideslip. If the fuel selectors are not fully locked in place the engines can quit. There is a button on the throttle quadrant that allows you to kill the engines with the throttles on a hot summer day if the mixture idle-cutoff doesn't shut the engines down. If that button gets stuck you can kill the engines when you bring the throttles to idle. Typically this happens in the flare then your stuck on the runway trying to restart a hot engine.

[Cat Driver]

Even Bob Hoover crashed due to being fueled up with jet fuel.

[ScudRunner]

Twin Engine Aircraft just aren't safe.

[. ._]

I looked into that, Cat. Interesting find!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoover ... oover_Ring

-istp

[iflyforpie]

Good thing he knows a thing or two about dead-stick flying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE&feature=fvst

At SAIT we had one of the few Cessna 320s that still had "TURBO" emblazoned on the nacelles. I believe there was an AD to remove these decals from the aircraft...

[Finn47]

Here´s an accident that happened in spite of the Hoover ring - partly because the local fuel distributor had attached an extra piece to the nozzle to make it fit: these German guys were driving a Beech 60 Duke, landed in Oulu, Finland for refuelling, asked for the wrong fuel (Jet A) not realizing that their aircraft runs on Avgas - and crashed 10 minutes after takeoff. Two of them were killed.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=59716

[medEvac]

when is transport going to realise the only safe ifr aircraft has four engines, AND THEY MUST ALL BE JETS!

[FlaplessDork]

when is transport going to realise the only safe ifr aircraft has four engines, AND THEY MUST ALL BE JETS!

When is TC going to realise the only safe aircraft sits on a stand at a museum.

[Unit 969]

when is transport going to realise the only safe ifr aircraft has four engines, AND THEY MUST ALL BE JETS!

When is TC going to realise the only safe aircraft sits on a stand at a museum.

Could still fall off.

[xsbank]

Snork, guffle, nearly lost my lunch beans - good one, Unit, but you're wrong, it WILL fall off!

[YOWza]

So in YXU's recent history...there has been a gear-up on rwy 27, a CFI that didn't know any better that tried to taxi a Seneca out of the mud, and now a double engine failure training flight. TC Hamilton needs to visit that side of the field more often as there is more going on behind these schools at CYXU than meets the eye. There's also inexperienced multi-engine instructors taking on a task that they can't handle. The next one may not be so lucky...

[Cat Driver]

There's also inexperienced multi-engine instructors taking on a task that they can't handle. The next one may not be so lucky..

Interesting comment.

Are you suggesting there are instructors who were given ratings and now employed in FTU's that are not qualified for what they are doing?

[YOWza]

There's also inexperienced multi-engine instructors taking on a task that they can't handle. The next one may not be so lucky..

Interesting comment.

Are you suggesting there are instructors who were given ratings and now employed in FTU's that are not qualified for what they are doing?

Absolutely. Minimum CARs time (which is normally built in the left seat) plus a right seat checkout does not equal multi-engine instructor competency. The instructor is not going to have a big problem because they finally are in a position to get that highly valuable multi time. Couple that with pressure from foreign owners to turn a quick buck and the lack of guidance that is present in these pilot factories at CYXU. I've seen and heard lots of "I'm online to teach multi this week...how do I do a Vmc demo?...how should I conduct circuits?" in forums and from instructors themselves. The SOPs should have already been clear before getting put online to teach. These schools are just sending these instructors and students up without the least concern for safety or quality of training. While a lot of single engine trainers will forgive inexperience and stupidity, these twins wont...and we get reminded every now and then.

[Cat Driver]

Absolutely. Minimum CARs time (which is normally built in the left seat) plus a right seat checkout does not equal multi-engine instructor competency.

Transport Canada thinks it does.

[Oor Wullie]

YOWza: Are you ASSuming that all FTU's have S.O.P.'s?

[YOWza]

Absolutely. Minimum CARs time (which is normally built in the left seat) plus a right seat checkout does not equal multi-engine instructor competency.

Transport Canada thinks it does.

There lies part of the problem. These "schools" get hard up for a multi instructor and take anyone who meets minimum numerical requirements. Just as long as the recruiter guy in India or China is happy...what else matters to them? A bigger problem is that TC KNOWS this stuff...people have made numerous complaints, but I think some folks at TC are just riding on 'til retirement hoping nothing will happen on their "watch".

[ETOPS]

So what do you guys suggest for a minimum level of experience (something quantifiable) to instruct on a multi?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A bigger problem is that TC KNOWS this stuff...people have made numerous complaints, but I think some folks at TC are just riding on 'til retirement hoping nothing will happen on their "watch".

How long have you been in aviation YOWza, I hope you don't think this is something new.

TC always was to be kind " myopic " when it comes to these issues.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So what do you guys suggest for a minimum level of experience (something quantifiable) to instruct on a multi?

At least 1000 hours PIC in 703/ 704 operations.

And a impartial knowledge / flight test before being approved.

[YOWza]

So what do you guys suggest for a minimum level of experience (something quantifiable) to instruct on a multi?

Maybe not a numerical value. How about instruction towards giving dual in a multi?