First Air - reduces Edmonton flights, adds YVQ

[r22captain]

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2010/0 ... -cuts.html

Competing airlines spur flight cuts: First Air
Last Updated: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 | 6:38 PM ET Comments9Recommend12CBC News
Starting June 1, First Air will reduce the number of flights it offers between Yellowknife and Edmonton from 16 a week to six. (CBC)
First Air is paring down its service between Yellowknife and Edmonton, due to the fare wars between the northern airline and national carriers like WestJet and Air Canada Jazz.

Starting June 1, First Air will offer only six flights a week between the N.W.T. and Alberta capitals, down from the current 16 flights a week.

Spokesman Chris Ferris told CBC News that First Air can no longer sustain 16 flights a week, as the southern-based airlines saturate the local market with discount fares.

"As an airline, it's a tough decision but it's a responsible one that we have to make," Ferris said in an interview.

First Air and rival northern airline Canadian North have faced stiff competition in Yellowknife since Air Canada Jazz entered the city's airline market in 2006. WestJet began flying to Yellowknife in May 2009.

"We've found ourselves in a situation where there was almost 400,000 seats a year between Edmonton and Yellowknife, and that's about double the capacity of what the actual market is," Ferris said.

The changes came as no surprise to some passengers and business officials, who say First Air is making a business decision.

"I think we could all see the problem — we're travelling on half-empty flights — so I think it's just First Air responding to market conditions," said Patrick Doyle of the N.W.T. Chamber of Commerce.

Adds Norman Wells stop
Despite cutting back on the Yellowknife-Edmonton route, First Air has also announced that existing flights through Iqaluit will now connect to Montreal three times a week.

As well, the airline is adding a scheduled stop in Norman Wells, N.W.T., to its Yellowknife-Inuvik route four times a week — a move that will bring First Air in direct competition with Canadian North.

"Norman Wells is a route that we can add without adding a lot of new flying or new cost to that route network," Ferris said.

Norman Wells Chamber of Commerce president Chris Boist said First Air's arrival could mean lower fares for residents, but he wonders if two competing airlines would be too much for the town of about 800.

"I'm not sure that with our downturn economically that it would support, you know, two airlines," Boist said. "We would hate to see one go down or have financial difficulties."

The route changes will mean job cuts for the airline, mainly in Edmonton and Ottawa, but Ferris could not say how many positions will be eliminated

[FICU]

Again, thanks to Westjet, their money losing fares, and their terrible loads between YEG and YZF more northerners are losing their jobs. I have heard 12 737 pilots and 22 flight attendants with the majority being Yellowknife based, not to mention the ground support personnel in YEG and YZF.

So all these people lose their jobs so Westjet can fly 30-50 people to YZF tomorrow for $89, Saturday for $74, and next Tuesday for $49...

Way to go Westjet!

[Kosiw]

This is not good for Fubar Air....and BTW, just what does WetJet contribute to northern communities ??? Oh that's right....not much WJ are nothin' but bottom feeders in the arctic

[stratcat]

I would say Westjet connects northerners to all of North America,Hawaii and the Carribean.When people want to go on vacation should they have to pay a fortune to just get to Edmonton?It wasnt long ago it cost 700 dollars to go Yellowknife to Edmonton.First Air and Canadian North should have seen this coming a long time ago.

[confuzed]

I would say Westjet connects northerners to all of North America,Hawaii and the Carribean.When people want to go on vacation should they have to pay a fortune to just get to Edmonton?It wasnt long ago it cost 700 dollars to go Yellowknife to Edmonton.First Air and Canadian North should have seen this coming a long time ago.

You mean those bastards were charging a little closer to reality what it actually costs to run an airplane?!? Oh the humanity!!!

Seriously, when it costs less to fly on an aircraft then it does to take the bus or to even rent a car it's no wonder our industry is in the state that it's in and our salaries suck the way they do.

[Lurch]

Ok am I the only one who saw the irony in the article?

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2010/0 ... -cuts.html

Competing airlines spur flight cuts: First Air

As well, the airline is adding a scheduled stop in Norman Wells, N.W.T., to its Yellowknife-Inuvik route four times a week — a move that will bring First Air in direct competition with Canadian North.

"Norman Wells is a route that we can add without adding a lot of new flying or new cost to that route network," Ferris said.

Norman Wells Chamber of Commerce president Chris Boist said First Air's arrival could mean lower fares for residents, but he wonders if two competing airlines would be too much for the town of about 800.

Lurch

[johnkruk]

Hate to see WJ hurting the small guys for a route like Yellowknife which means almost nothing to them. If it were AC feeling the pain cause of WJ everyone is happy, everyone that is that doesn't work there.

[C-FABH]

Hmm, who knew that gouging could be justified by supporting a few scholarships and sports teams here and there. Gouging is still gouging.

[EastCoaster]

Everyone on this site is constantly complaining about wages and working conditions and fair contracts and so on. I want to call out all of you that yap on and on about that but yet say that the Northern Carriers are gouging. What kind of fools are you? You have no issues to see one of the few Canadian Carriers that makes money, and pays fair wages losing the battle with the Walmart type carrier that Westjet is? At First Air and Canadian North, the entire principal behind their parent companies even owning an airline is so that they produce revenue for the shareholders and provide continuous, safe and efficient air travel options to Northerners. That's the goal! At Canadian North and First Air, that's what they do. The average person wouldn't know it, but the pilots in the front seat are well paid, with good benefits packages, retirement plans, and a steady career path. The airlines charge what the seat is worth. Let's take a minute to calculate the slight differences between Westjet and First Air/Canadian North.

Number One - The Northern Airlines actually provide hundreds of good paying jobs in the North, Westjet does provides about ten or so.
Number Two - The Northern Airlines own infrastructure in the North, and pay taxes in the North. Westjet does not.
Number Three - The Northern Airlines are providing service to almost all communities in the North, serving towns and hamlets of 1000 sometimes only three hundred people or less with daily service. Westjet does not.

My conclusion. Westjet is a great corporate citizen in the South. They're friendly. They fly safe airplanes and do one heck of a good job at it. If they want to run a 49 dollar seat sale on their flights to Southern Airports that increase their market share against Air Canada, I'm all for it. Just do it somewhere else please. Here in Yellowknife, where all jobs pay more than the equivalent down south, keep the prices at a level that are fair to the local people, AND that would sustain the local airlines, around two hundred dollars each way, and we'll all get to keep our jobs. Put on a seat sale for one hundred and fifty! Fight us on fair ground. Beat us on service. Win the customers. Don't abuse us and disservice the entire North by running the good guys out of town. Nobody will say this out loud, but this means people leaving the North. Job cuts. Families moving away. Less tax dollars. The list could go on forever. In the end, only Northerners will lose from this. The worst part of all is that the day after the press got wind of the cuts, the prices went up in the Yellowknife market.

Millions of dollars in sponsorships, discounts to community groups, gifts, not a few or even a few thousand free tickets will make up for this. Try finding a sponsor for Folk on the Rocks or a forty team hockey tournament.

Nobody thinks about the end results. Passionate aviation people that love what they do and are paid well to do it, are losing their jobs and moving away.

[stringbender]

Just wondering what impact Jazz has going to Yellowknife?We dont hear anything about them.Are they paying taxes in the North and providing a lot of jobs?

[FICU]

Hmm, who knew that gouging could be justified by supporting a few scholarships and sports teams here and there. Gouging is still gouging.

You obviously have no idea what the cost is to run a northern airline vs a southern one... First Air's flight reductions should give you a bit of a clue.

Just wondering what impact Jazz has going to Yellowknife?We dont hear anything about them.Are they paying taxes in the North and providing a lot of jobs?

When AC entered the market they didn't come in with Walmart fares. They competed with northern fares and all was well for everyone. Walmart Air is the problem and they have put a lot of northerners out of work for a money losing sector that means nothing to them.

[godsrcrazy]

I am just curious isn't First airs head office in Carp Ontario and Canadian North does all there maintenance down south.

What is West Jet flying to Yellowknife an A380. Since they started flying 1 flight per day or 7 flights per week. Canadian north dropped 12 flights i believe and now First air is dropping 16 flights for a total of 28 flights between 2 air lines. Maybe my math is wrong but how can 7 flights = 28.

Why isn't anyone on here complaining about First air going to Norman wells to compete against Canadian North.

Maybe West jet and Jazz going north is a little shot at Both Northern air lines waning to play in he south. Bidding runs to places Like Las Vegas and Fort McMurray. I wonder if these guys would have stayed playing up north if they would have been left alone.

I have heard a few people left some of the charter operators in Yellowknife to go work for the Northern air lines. The amazing part is a lot of them sold there homes in Yellowknife and moved south while working for the Northern air lines.

[C-FABH]

Hmm, who knew that gouging could be justified by supporting a few scholarships and sports teams here and there. Gouging is still gouging.

You obviously have no idea what the cost is to run a northern airline vs a southern one... First Air's flight reductions should give you a bit of a clue.

They have re-assigned the aircraft to a route with less competition and higher fares. In the end, this is to ultimately support shareholders. It couldn't be that First Air suddenly cares about their long-forgotten cousins in Norman Wells they forgot about all these years.

[blewhead]

Hmm, who knew that gouging could be justified by supporting a few scholarships and sports teams here and there. Gouging is still gouging.

You obviously have no idea what the cost is to run a northern airline vs a southern one... First Air's flight reductions should give you a bit of a clue.

They have re-assigned the aircraft to a route with less competition and higher fares. In the end, this is to ultimately support shareholders. It couldn't be that First Air suddenly cares about their long-forgotten cousins in Norman Wells they forgot about all these years.

You are totally clueless buddy

[737576]

I am just curious isn't First airs head office in Carp Ontario and Canadian North does all there maintenance down south.

Both First Air and Canadian North have Hangers in Iqaluit, and do maintenance there. I believe Canadian North also does maintenance in Yellowknife in a rented hanger.

[CanadaEH]

Everyone on this site is constantly complaining about wages and working conditions and fair contracts and so on. I want to call out all of you that yap on and on about that but yet say that the Northern Carriers are gouging. What kind of fools are you? You have no issues to see one of the few Canadian Carriers that makes money, and pays fair wages losing the battle with the Walmart type carrier that Westjet is? At First Air and Canadian North, the entire principal behind their parent companies even owning an airline is so that they produce revenue for the shareholders and provide continuous, safe and efficient air travel options to Northerners. That's the goal! At Canadian North and First Air, that's what they do.

How does that differ from WestJet or Air Canada or any publicly traded airline? I see the passion in your post but its a free market and one that runs both ways. WestJet was one of the top 5 most profitable airlines in the world in 2009. I know that may hard to believe, being "walmart" and all, but it's true. Guess what? I got paid pretty damn well too. I get the complex operations that Northern Airlines have to run.. I get it.. but that doesn't mean certain routes or provinces or competitive landscapes are sacred cows. It's a free market. Skyservice just closed down shop. I notice nobody mentioned that name at all in this thread. Why's that? Because they're based in Ontario?

The average person wouldn't know it, but the pilots in the front seat are well paid, with good benefits packages, retirement plans, and a steady career path. The airlines charge what the seat is worth. Let's take a minute to calculate the slight differences between Westjet and First Air/Canadian North.

Number One - The Northern Airlines actually provide hundreds of good paying jobs in the North, Westjet does provides about ten or so.

WestJet operates 430+ flights per day; one of which is to YZF. One. WestJet provides thousands of good paying jobs to people all across Canada.

Number Two - The Northern Airlines own infrastructure in the North, and pay taxes in the North. Westjet does not.

WestJet is not based in the North, which is why it does not have infrastructure in the North. It does, however, fly to every province but one (correct me if I'm wrong?), is based in a province that has the lowest level of taxes in all of Canada, has "infrastructure" (I'm assuming you mean maintenance) in most major cities across Canada, and pays taxes in every province it operates out of.

Number Three - The Northern Airlines are providing service to almost all communities in the North, serving towns and hamlets of 1000 sometimes only three hundred people or less with daily service. Westjet does not.

Fair enough. Those are the markets Northern Airlines chose to operate to. WestJet is accountable to its shareholders which is why it doesn't fly into cities that are not sustainable with a 737. Some markets work and some don't. There are dozens of markets that WestJet operates to/from that the Northern Airlines are free to service. Why aren't they?

My conclusion. Westjet is a great corporate citizen in the South. They're friendly. They fly safe airplanes and do one heck of a good job at it. If they want to run a 49 dollar seat sale on their flights to Southern Airports that increase their market share against Air Canada, I'm all for it. Just do it somewhere else please.

So its ok if competition is alive and well outside of the North, but the minute it comes knocking on your door you get your back up against the wall and cry fowl? It's been mentioned a few times before but the Northern Airlines have had years to prepare for the expansion of WestJet (and Air Canada) but they seem to have gotten complacent over time.

Here in Yellowknife, where all jobs pay more than the equivalent down south, keep the prices at a level that are fair to the local people, AND that would sustain the local airlines, around two hundred dollars each way, and we'll all get to keep our jobs.

If you want to know what a "fair price" is for a flight such as YEG-YZF, look up similar length flights. I don't know how far it is between the two but if you want to see what a "fair price" is, look at a market that Westjet and Air Canada charge on a similar route. It's been demonstrated time and time again that Canada can't sustain more than two carriers on one route for a long period of time. WestJet has the lowest costs of any publicly traded airline in Canada; WestJet has the benefit of being consistently profitable; WestJet and Air Canada have the benefit of network and feed; and WestJet and Air Canada have the benefit of brand recognition.

[EastCoaster]

Canada EH,

As I stated in my post earlier, I think Westjet is great. However it's simply not fair for you to compare cost structure on a similar route flown down south with Southern based equipment and infrastructure costs. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Anyhow. It's all said and done. Westjet have lowered the price below a level that a high-overhead Northern Airline can compete at. So... we're done. Scaled back to the point of running connection traffic. Oddly, we were able to all compete and make money when it was just Canadian North, First Air, and Air Canada.

Cheers.

[Panama Jack]

I am not surprised to see long-established airlines being bothered with more efficient competition moving in on their turf. Unfortunately, this is the reality of competition. The customer is happy because it offers competition and in this case lower prices. It is also a more democratic process (the customer has choices), and this concept is in-line with Canadian values on a larger scale! Some customers will choose to "buy local" and that is a noble choice. Others won't. That's their right also.

All of this discussion will get very interesting in a few years when Ryanair sets up shop in Canada. The World is changing.

[whiteguy]

I am not surprised to see long-established airlines being bothered with more efficient competition moving in on their turf. Unfortunately, this is the reality of competition. The customer is happy because it offers competition and in this case lower prices. It is also a more democratic process (the customer has choices), and this concept is in-line with Canadian values on a larger scale! Some customers will choose to "buy local" and that is a noble choice. Others won't. That's their right also.

All of this discussion will get very interesting in a few years when Ryanair sets up shop in Canada. The World is changing.

Oh such irony! It was the "reality of competition" when AC matched WS fares a few years ago, right? Nope, guess who went running the Competition Bureau! You guys make me chuckle!!!

[Panama Jack]

Being neither a "new-Blue" team nor a Red team member, I can identify a little bit with Dwight Eisenhower's quote "An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame -- Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins."

Actually, I am not totally apathetic. The Canadian airline industry has historically been an unlevel playing field, one where the actors step on toes and throw dirt in each others faces; I am one of those people who count myself as a mourning "Wardair" fan. Dirty, rotten, nasty industry.

But as I said, it will be very interesting when Ryanair gets to play in the Domestic market. Maybe we can both share a chuckle then, whiteguy

http://funstufftosee.com/airlineempires.html

[Pratt]

Nice link PJ, thanks.

[Arctic84]

Interesting thread.

First Air and Canadian North won't re-equip, but they cry when they have to compete with airlines that have modern fleets. As was mentioned above, you knew this was coming.

There is no reason not to go to 737-700's at First Air and Canadian North. The nice people at Boeing can even whip you up a combi version, just like they did for the Navy. At the very least, you could have some 400's converted, like Alaska did.

Resolute, Coppermine, Cambridge Bay, Nanasivik, do any of them even get jet service any more? The 737-200 was a blast to fly, and I miss it, but it's time has long since passed. When we retired them at WJ, the airframe maintenance alone was costing a fortune. And 6500 lbs/hr wasn't helping either.

Did you really think airfares in the North would remain artificially high forever?

[FICU]

Interesting thread.

There is no reason not to go to 737-700's at First Air and Canadian North. The nice people at Boeing can even whip you up a combi version, just like they did for the Navy. At the very least, you could have some 400's converted, like Alaska did.

Resolute, Coppermine, Cambridge Bay, Nanasivik, do any of them even get jet service any more? The 737-200 was a blast to fly, and I miss it, but it's time has long since passed. When we retired them at WJ, the airframe maintenance alone was costing a fortune. And 6500 lbs/hr wasn't helping either.

Did you really think airfares in the North would remain artificially high forever?

And by "artificially high" you mean profitable right? Another expert on what it costs to run a northern airline. How profitable has WJ been on the YZF-YEG run all year with less than half empty airplanes and Walmart fares?

Will the good folks at Boeing create a movable bulkhead for the combis and put a gravel kit on the shiny new -700 too? Currently, we take the -200 into 4 gravel strips and 1 ice strip on a regular basis, hence us being a northern airline with the associated higher costs and lower volume of pax, hence not running -700s. There will be some -300s coming for charter work but the -200 will be the backbone of the fleet for years to come and yes it is a real "pilot's" airplane.

The old -200 will be flying into Cambridge Bay tomorrow.

[Arctic84]

Interesting thread.

There is no reason not to go to 737-700's at First Air and Canadian North. The nice people at Boeing can even whip you up a combi version, just like they did for the Navy. At the very least, you could have some 400's converted, like Alaska did.

Resolute, Coppermine, Cambridge Bay, Nanasivik, do any of them even get jet service any more? The 737-200 was a blast to fly, and I miss it, but it's time has long since passed. When we retired them at WJ, the airframe maintenance alone was costing a fortune. And 6500 lbs/hr wasn't helping either.

Did you really think airfares in the North would remain artificially high forever?

And by "artificially high" you mean profitable right? Another expert on what it costs to run a northern airline. How profitable has WJ been on the YZF-YEG run all year with less than half empty airplanes and Walmart fares?

Will the good folks at Boeing create a movable bulkhead for the combis and put a gravel kit on the shiny new -700 too? Currently, we take the -200 into 4 gravel strips and 1 ice strip on a regular basis, hence us being a northern airline with the associated higher costs and lower volume of pax, hence not running -700s. There will be some -300s coming for charter work but the -200 will be the backbone of the fleet for years to come and yes it is a real "pilot's" airplane.

The old -200 will be flying into Cambridge Bay tomorrow.

No, I mean artificially high, just like it sounds. If you could charge enough, with a captive market, you could put the Electra and DC-6 back on the line and make money. Not gonna happen. BTW, I fly over the HQ of one of the "northern airlines" on left base for runway 32 at YOW.

As for the "more than half empty" and "Walmart fares" nonsense, perhaps you could explain how that is possible while remaining the most profitable airline in Canada by far, growing faster than any other airline in Canada, and having the highest paid narrow body pilots in Canada. WJ was going to operate seasonally to YZF, but was successful enough to operate year round. Wouldn't be surprised to see a second daily flight by WJ soon.

The moveable bulkhead is a thing of the past, just like the gravel kit. You pick a configuration and live with it. If you want to fly off of gravel, you keep the old 200's or buy turbo props. The Dash 8 400 seems nice.

I can assure you that a 700 combi would cost a lot less to operate than a 200 on a per trip basis, so lower passenger volumes mean nothing. Put 70 people and 2 pallets on a 200 vs. the same load on a 700 and see which costs less to operate.

The world of aviation is nothing but continual change. When I used to rotate into YRB with Borek in the 80's, PWA had no problem charging them up to $1000 return from YYC. Of course, they had no competition as the whole system was regulated. First Air and Canadian North did nothing to prepare for a de-regulated system, now they are paying the price for it.

Adapt or disappear. It's a cold hard reality in aviation.

[FICU]

No, I mean artificially high, just like it sounds. If you could charge enough, with a captive market, you could put the Electra and DC-6 back on the line and make money. Not gonna happen. BTW, I fly over the HQ of one of the "northern airlines" on left base for runway 32 at YOW.

If the fares were so artifically high why then did First Air and Canadian north have to cut back when Westjet arrived? They obviously were sustainable at the fares they were charging but not when competing against Air Walmart. So, you tell me what they should have been charging.

As for the "more than half empty" and "Walmart fares" nonsense, perhaps you could explain how that is possible while remaining the most profitable airline in Canada by far, growing faster than any other airline in Canada, and having the highest paid narrow body pilots in Canada. WJ was going to operate seasonally to YZF, but was successful enough to operate year round. Wouldn't be surprised to see a second daily flight by WJ soon.

I was referring to the YEG-YZF run and your loads were counted daily... 40 on average at an average of $99. BTW... if we worked as much OT as you do we'd be the highest paid since our base pay is higher than yours.

The moveable bulkhead is a thing of the past, just like the gravel kit. You pick a configuration and live with it. If you want to fly off of gravel, you keep the old 200's or buy turbo props. The Dash 8 400 seems nice.

Not quite as for the right price I'm sure you can get an STC for a movable bulkhead. So you agree we need the -200s to serve our northern customers and we do have turbo-props running into smaller communities.

I can assure you that a 700 combi would cost a lot less to operate than a 200 on a per trip basis, so lower passenger volumes mean nothing. Put 70 people and 2 pallets on a 200 vs. the same load on a 700 and see which costs less to operate.

A tough proposition when our airplanes are paid for considering the capital cost of a -700 and then there is that gravel kit issue again since we fly large freight into gravel.

The world of aviation is nothing but continual change. When I used to rotate into YRB with Borek in the 80's, PWA had no problem charging them up to $1000 return from YYC. Of course, they had no competition as the whole system was regulated. First Air and Canadian North did nothing to prepare for a de-regulated system, now they are paying the price for it.

Adapt or disappear. It's a cold hard reality in aviation.

So what would West charge return to Resolute bay from Calgary with 30 pax, if that? The problem is that in Westjet's narrow focus on taking market share from AC they have no problem putting other people in other airlines out of work and they even feel good about it because they think they are the greatest airline in existence.

Thanks for bringing the Walmart model to our profession... I'm sure many of your peers are thrilled.