Hey All
I am flying my first season single engine on wheels in NW Ontario and am becoming more aware of just how few options there are to land in the event of an engine failure. I was on floats last year and wheels after freeze up so this wasn't much of an issue, but being in a fixed gear plane with nothing but Lakes and bush I am wondering what the best approach is to walking away from a crash. Maybe put it into some small trees, the edge of a marsh or some small poplars as they are a little more flexible? I know it may seem like a funny question but Im just looking for any input that may help get the best case result from a worse case scenario. Please keep in mind that 95% of the time there are no roads here.
Thanks in advance!
Not from personal experience, but I understand you have to 'fly' the aircraft into the trees, whether with or without power. A stall would result in a nose-down plummet between the trunks, with not only a more sudden stop, but less damage to the trees for searchers to find.
A friend experienced with this told me poplars are more forgiving than conifers, which surprised me but I always bowed to experience.
Do your checks, hedge your bets and cross your fingers. Your question merely underlines the responsible thinking you are demonstrating in countering possible eventualities.
snaproll20 wrote:
A friend experienced with this told me poplars are more forgiving than conifers, which surprised me but I always bowed to experience.
Does your friend have experience crashing into these different woods? Poplar is a hardwood, conifers are softwood... I would rather crash into something soft than hard, wouldn't you?
Yes, fly the plane all the way. YMMV on the results since there are so many variables...
Ditch in the lake at a shoreline in shallow water if you can. Get out, get your passengers out. Go to shore. Start a fire.
If you have the choice. I think that short trees are much preferable to tall ones. Short trees are usually alive, which means they don't have dead snage angled to come through your windshield. We had a thread a while back here which was based on a study that showed 92% of ditchings were successful in terms of avoidance of death or serious injury. The 8% were mostly people who drowned after getting out of the airplane uninjured. You're probably going to be killed or seriously injured in 70% of forced approaches into trees.
In a crash, the safest seat is in the back of the plane, so if your engine quits try to make it to the tail and buckle in, just ignore any nasty looks from the passengers.
ok jokes aside, just fly IFR
I Follow Roads, Rails, Rivers etc, not for navigation so much as for options if the burner dies.
Roads, obviously good, rails, generally half decent, and rivers often have river banks on the inside of a curve.
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Back to the topic at hand of the best trees to put down in, they can be hard to identify at 70mph, however crash landing in pine trees will at least make things smell nice.
Seriously though, pick the short ones is all I'd suggest.
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I'd aim for the tops of the trees instead of the bottoms. Rumour has it that they bend easier
We've beaten this to death here before, but I would still choose trees over water. Of course, if it's low tide, there may be a wide, firm sandy beach to land on.
1. Be sure you have enough of a reserve (gas that is..DUH!) to at least eliminate that cause of an engine failure. Don't laugh, running out of gas HAS to be, by FAR the most common cause of engine failure in a (modern) single engine piston airplane!
2. Keep as much altitude under you ass as you possibly can. After an engine fails, time (altitude...DUH!) is your best friend. Seems obvious, but folks skud running often make unscheduled landings in the trees. You want the tree landing to be YOUR idea.
3. Keep in mind, that even a successful landing in the trees often results in the aircraft being almost impossible to spot to SAR. The aircraft tends to continue it's journey to the earth....and the trees will "gobble" it up, as seen from above.
4. Clear cut areas from the lumber industry are very common in North Western Ontario. I'd fly high and keep these areas in mind.
5. Either way, a landing off strip in a forest has a very high probability of being fatal. Buy lots of insurance. You can name me as your beneficiary.
Doc wrote:1. Be sure you have enough of a reserve (gas that is..DUH!) to at least eliminate that cause of an engine failure. Don't laugh, running out of gas HAS to be, by FAR the most common cause of engine failure in a (modern) single engine piston airplane!
Interesting stats here. Not sure of the accuracy of them, but sound about right. For those too lazy to follow the link the combined causes of engine failures a whopping 28% of them are pilot induced fuel troubles (20% just plain runnin out of gas, 8% fuel system mismanagement).
MrWings wrote:
iflyforpie wrote:
Poplar is a hardwood, conifers are softwood... I would rather crash into something soft than hard, wouldn't you?
I wouldn't get all hung up on the hard and soft distinction of the trees. Balsa wood is considered a hardwood.
Size of the tree is probably more important that species.
One will note that the distinction of "hard" or "soft" wood becomes more prevalent after said wood has been cured. If we really get down to it, size of tree matters more if you're going to crash into them, though conifer type trees generally be preferable to crash into given how the tree grows and generally have smaller trunks than the leafy trees. If you have the choice between spruce and pine (and know the difference) go for the spruce as they are usually shorter - avoid larch or tamarak, they tend to grow in swampy areas. In the end its really a crapshoot. If you're really, really, really worried about crashing into the trees though I would recommend flying an airplane that is suited to the task. Reportedly the Grumman Cats and their factory brethren the Avenger were very good at making survivable crashes into the trees. For that matter anything with lots of engine in front of you and an armored windshield probably works, Republic also apparently made good bulldozers.
I personally would never ever choose water. Drowning uhhhh no way
Go for the small trees.
Remember crash slow, and controlled. Minimize the deceleration trauma. And buy a flight helmet. You cant help you passengers if your unconscious, or escape from a submerged aircraft.
Meatservo wrote:Hemlocks, because of their fresh scent.
Are you not thinking of tamaracks? Methinks hemlock is poisonous? Cedar is also used to line drawers, and repel moths.
Cedar would be the freshest scent of all. Hemlocks smell nice too. I guess they are poisonous. People in old plays always drink "Hemlock" to off themselves. I wonder if it's the same plant. Maybe best to steer clear of Hemlocks for this reason. Good thinking, Doc.
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If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
A couple of tips from an old spary and bomber pilot who has had the pleasure of crashing a few. If you are landing in trees, fly the aircarft into the trees at a slow speed into wind if you have time, under control, flaps down feet off the rudder's. Very important to keep from getting your ankles broken. Stay away from clear cuts. You will be landing on stumps that have no give and can really cause a lot of damage and may cause the aircraft to overturn. If you have a choice green soft wood is the best. Good flying. Remember mechanical failure is not a major cause of accidents.
Doc wrote:4. Clear cut areas from the lumber industry are very common in North Western Ontario. I'd fly high and keep these areas in mind.
5. Either way, a landing off strip in a forest has a very high probability of being fatal. Buy lots of insurance. You can name me as your beneficiary.
The problem with clear cuts is that they aren't clear. If an Ontario clearcut is the same as a BC clearcut, except flat, then there are going to be hundreds of stumps in the cut. We have been talking about treetopping to take advantage of the staged deceleration as the aircraft settles into the more pliable branches and eventually main stems near the top. Running into the bottom a a tree is a very different thing. The deceleration is likely going to be instantaneous. If you're in a low wing and start hitting those stumps, you are going to have tank ruptures and high pressure fuel being forced around the wing interior and bursting outside.
Now there are roads in clearcuts and that may be the benefit Doc is talking about.
Point 5? Dead on.
Sorry Tiger, I didn't see the post above when I posted about clearcuts. Very good point about keeping your feet off the rudder pedals.
The Mole wrote:I personally would never ever choose water. Drowning uhhhh no way
Go for the small trees.
Remember crash slow, and controlled. Minimize the deceleration trauma. And buy a flight helmet. You cant help you passengers if your unconscious, or escape from a submerged aircraft.
So lets examine the logic here. As a pilot, you have a fear of drowning. But you know that a forced landing into trees has a much higher rate of injury, and particularly serious injury. You have lets say three people with you in your aircraft. What you are saying is that you would, if having the choice of trees or water, choose that option which exposes your passengers to a much higher risk of injury over one in which there is a very remote possibility that you might drown.
Get out to the pool. Take some swimming lessons. Go off the high board and stay at the bottom as long as you can.
One day, it may save you from making the wrong choice for your passengers.
Had an acquaintance put a buck85 into the bush right after takeoff, he landed in some small poplar/birches. just some minor damage to floats/underside/leading edges. ie within operational specs. they hooked up the come alongs dragged it back to the lake put fuel in it and flew it away. FWIW it had just come out of a 100 hr, had been fueled with 3 hrs worth .8 before and the recovery team had done the 100 hr, they called it pilot error.
Ogee wrote:Get out to the pool. Take some swimming lessons. Go off the high board and stay at the bottom as long as you can.
We're not talking about ditching in that nice water you see the twotters floating in in the Kenn Borek calender. Maybe you should read up a bit about what your other concern is aside from drowning. Nevermind the fact that just because you're an olympic swimmer, doesn't mean your passengers are.
The only time you pick the water over the trees is when its frozen thick enough to land on.
