New guy - appalled

[Mihai]

Hey everyone, new guy here. Finished my CPL multi IFR about a month ago in St-Hubert and started sending emails, faxes and phone calls - all over Canada. And then I started reading the forums here...

First of all let me start by telling you that i'm 23 and before starting flying 2 years ago i was in university not knowing what the hell to do with my life. And then i gave it all up and said that i'm gonna follow my dreams and what i've been wanting to do for a long time. So I thought I took the best decision of my life and started flying. And I loved every moment of it. I was bulletproof, nothing could stop me from reaching my goals.

Hell, I was feeling like this until a few months ago when the skies became darker, when I started looking for companies I could work for. And then I started reading the forums here. I am absolutely appalled at the fact that pilots with many more hours than I have are unable to find a job. I used to think that many pilots that finish at my school pretty much became instructors and that I was gonna have an advantage over them cause I was ready from the beginning to go anywhere in Canada. But I'm here, with a blank stare on my face for the past few weeks wondering if it wasnt the worst decision of my life.

I can't see myself doing anything else in life than flying. I'm sure it's pretty much the same for all of us here.
I have some debts to pay back in the following months and then I suppose it's roadtrip time for me too... for a ramp job. FML

I guess I just needed to get this off my chest and talk about it to people who know more about the industry than those around me.


PS. iflyforpie, I sent you a message but you didnt bother answering... you seem to believe and wrote that there are plenty of companies out there that fly light singles such as a 172 and 185 - you mind shedding some light on under what rocks those companies are located? cause i sure as hell can't find any that's willing to hire a guy like me with 225h

[loopa]

Hi New Guy,

Welcome to the industry. I want to point out a few things for you as I was in your shoes a few months ago. Get out there, start networking with people simply for the cause of getting to know people, their operations, and their prospectives. You will find this becoming very beneficial for your aviation career once you are ready to move on to bigger and better things. When you speak with people who have "been there, and done that" you will gain an insight and feel at ease that the guy next to you is probably in the same position you are. These people with experience will shed some light on their aviation career, and how they started out, and it will actually make you feel better about your situation. A friend of mine just completed his sim ride with West Jet as he was on the March course... it took him 2-3 years to find his first aviation job. Another friend of mine is trying to apply to West Jet, and he was picked up by a multi ifr operation 3 months after completing training. My point? it's not about "when" you find a job, rather, spending time, looking for the right job. You're going to get a lot of opinions on this, but don't be the 225 hour guy who is too selective, but also don't be the 225 hour guy who will accept "ANY" job that will lead to flying. There are many sketchy companies out there, and then there are some very good ones. You can use the search function and find which ones are worth applying too.

Something I sensed in your post was that you have a sense of entitlement. This kind of attitude will not go far and will most likely become your worst enemy. I may be wrong, but this is how I come up with this.

and that I was gonna have an advantage over them cause I was ready from the beginning to go anywhere in Canada.

No body has an advantage over anybody. Especially as a low timer. Chances are, every operator you go to have been visited by numbers of low timers like yourself. You're not the only low timer willing to work away from mommy and daddy. So no, you're not at advantage over anybody else.

PS. iflyforpie, I sent you a message but you didnt bother answering

I have a great deal of respect for pie on these boards. I find that your tone in approaching that he "didn't bother" answering you is underlying the thought that it's his responsibility to get back to you. It's no bodies responsibility to do anything for you but yourself. You're curious about something? get out and research it. Sure ask questions, but try to lower your expectations and sense of entitlement that everybody owes you something. It's like a guy applying for an atpl job stating that he will write his ATPL exams if the company will hire him. It doesn't work this way in the industry.

I trust that your intentions are genuine and that maybe I have read a bit too much into trying to identify something that you're doing wrong. But if I am correct about you having a sense of entitlement, it's your best bet to change that right now as it will be a career demolisher for you.

To summarize, get out there buddy, meet people, say hello, learn things, be curious, show interest, and sell yourself. Show them that you know what you are required to know, but most importantly, show them that you are willing to learn. The "know-it-all's" finish last. And in an industry where the supply/demand ratio is out of whack, finishing last will ultimately mean no job.

I truly wish you the best; I'm in the same boat and hope to find something.

Adios !

[tbaylx]

Having been in this industry a while i can sympathize. I don't see any sense of entitlement in your post, just someone new in the industry suprised that after paying his money for schooling and training that he isn't employable. Unfortunately that is a common theme in canadian aviation, and a repetitive one. Most pilots are unemployed and looking for work several times during their career in this country. The best advice i can give you is to have a backup for those times when you can't find an aviation job. A degree, and second career will go a long long way to helping you through that. One thing you will realize is that even with thousands of hours and many hundreds of hours of training, outside the industry your training is pretty much useless and non transferrable, so you'l be looking for unskilled work unless you have a backup.

My advice? Finish the degree and then go look for a flying job, that way you have a plan B for when the flying isn't paying the bills. We've all been there and spent the few years working for peanuts as an instructor/rampie before working for peanuts as a pilot somewhere It's a great job, but a pretty crappy career is the best way to put it. It's mostly about who you know and being in the right spot at the right time. Best of luck.

[wallypilot]

My advice? Finish the degree and then go look for a flying job, that way you have a plan B for when the flying isn't paying the bills.

Exactly. Plus, maybe by the time you finish your degree, the industry will have picked up and you can find something. I did exactly this (although in the opposite order) degree first, flying second and I've never looked back. Networking is important, as well..get out on that road trip, head to to NWO, or AB, or wherever....

One other little bit of advice...don't lower yourself to the level of so many pilots that will slit their fellow pilot's throat to get that extra .2 of flight time. The flight time will come once you get a job. there are so many people out there scheming to get every .1 of flight time and it drives the normal people around them crazy. relax, network, go on that road trip, meet chief pilots, and don't feel like the industry owes you something. Accept it for what it is, or what you discover it to be, because it won't change much in the short term. Don't let anyone else "tell you how it is". Figure it our for yourself and you'll be miles ahead. One thing the degree will teach you(hopefully) is to think critically. Personally, i think this will help you in allaspects of life going forward. But it will definitely help you in your aviation carreer as well.

Best of luck!

WP

ps...if you PM me, I will PM you back at some point...i don't check my PM's that often so you'd have to be patient.

[xsbank]

Despite Loopa's ad hominem attack, there are some gems in there. This industry is good for some but right now we are in one of the regularly-repeating slumps that we encounter. We suffer from a down economy first, but we frequently benefit from a rising economy first too. Far too many willing to fly for peanuts just to have some way to gain hours. There is a period in our 'careers' that we cannot see (perhaps willful blindness?) any downside to this pursuit - we are willing to go to any crap place to fly, will fly crappy airplanes that were made about the time your father was born and we have the time of our lives. While our friends get married, buying houses, having children, buying new cars, we are struggling in the bush somewhere for crap wages and long, silly hours getting our jollies flying junk food into first nations villages, drinking too much and doing very stupid things with the locals, usually of the opposite sex.

How many pilots end up in the airlines? Just look at the stats for the number of ATPLs and commercials and count the pilots at Westjet or Air Canada. Not good. Then, just to make things really suck, you do get in, you get a seniority number and then the airline goes tits up. Canadian Pacific, Pacific Western, Time Air, Wardair, Nordair, Jetsgo - you name it. Westjet is healthy right now, but even Air Canada, the so-called legacy carrier, has been bankrupt. Now you are out on the street, if you find a seat in anything large at all you will be starting completely over again.

Best of luck to you - I would NEVER encourage anybody to go into aviation, especially when there is such a rush to have pilotless aircraft.

[Mihai]

Loopa, I think you've read too much into my post... I don't think i have a sense of entitlement, I am ready to work hard to get where I want to be. Still, I believe it's unfair for a pilot to have to prove himself in lifting cargo or cleaning toilets in order to fly an airplane.

I didn't mean to blast iflyforpie, I realize that his posts are very constructive and I actually learned a lot from what he wrote. That's precisely why i PM'd him.

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll keep networking as much as possible. As for the degree, I doubt I'll go back to that major in economics... i'm happy for the time being with the job I have.

[JohnnyDrama]

The only advice I can give you is try not to listen to the people on here who are all about doom and gloom. So many people just want to tell you that aviation is a horrible industry and that you should just quit now because you will never find a job and if you do the pay will be so low you can't live... blah blah blah... It's all over these forums. You will find a job. Just keep trying and do what you have to do. I have never done it myself but a lot of people say that the road trip is a great way to find that first gig.

When you do get a job...wherever that may be...enjoy it for what it is! Canada has some of the most beautiful places in the world and I think too many guys get their first jobs up North or wherever and all they can think about is getting their little bit of time and getting out of there. You will meet some of the best people, and see some of the greatest places not to mention learn skills that will help you for the rest of your career.

I'm not sure if you have already said it but do you have an instructor rating? If not are you interested in doing one?

[iflyforpie]

Mikhai. I didn't receive a PM from you as I am usually pretty good at responding to them. I finally found your message in the email address that this account is tied to, which I rarely ever check.

Maybe times are different now, but if you look up pipeline patrol companies (Airborne Energy Solutions in Whitecourt AB is one I know of) most will hire low time guys, and pay decently. Even though you're flying a humble 172, you are logging PIC hours (sometimes nearly 1000 a year).

I would recommend picking up an Aviation Business Directory (I don't know where you buy them, I get mine though my Canadian Aviator subscription), and go through each company you might have a shot at getting a job, then send out resumes. As I said before, try companies that most people would avoid because they seem too small or don't have that IFR twin to upgrade to. I used to think that large companies with lots of airplanes flying lots of hours was the way to get a secure well-paying job, but I've found the reverse to be true.


99% of the time, resumes don't get you jobs. As a person who reads a ton of them, it isn't a real good way of standing out amongst the hundreds of others with pilots who have less than 500 hours.

Being in the right place at the right time is what gets you a job. So get out of the city where you are competing with thousands of other wannabes and hit the road ready to fly. We had a job opening a couple years ago (shows how pilots like to stick around here). We got resumes from people with thousands of hours. The guy who got the job had 300 hours and the reason why he got the job is because he showed up at our door ready to work.

Another advantage for low time guys is it seems some insurance companies have given a lot of operators a break for low time drivers.

This information is worth exactly what you paid for it and YMMV. Best of luck.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am also appalled......that unfortunately there are still so many wannabe's that do not appear to understand the realities of this business and in particular the enduring difficulty in getting that crucial first job. It is not impossible...but it has been, is right now, and will be for the future, unlikely you will immediately secure a good job right out of flight school. If do manage to score a good job you likely had two things in your favour

1) You went into your flight training with your eyes open and worked your ass off in flight training as well as networked like mad

2) You were extremely lucky to be in the right place at the right time.

The probability of point 2 can be influenced by point 1. If you can get a foot hold in the industry by picking up part time work dispatching/ramping/fueling/grooming etc as you progress your training you will have a significant advantage. By keeping your mouth shut and your ears open you can glean critical intellegence on what is happening. By working hard and being enthusiatic you can also start building your aviation reputation. Flying in Canada is not a very big industry and most jobs are filled by insider recommendations. Making a good impression early is a good thing.

However more probable is the likelyhood you will not find a flying job fresh out of school. At this point you had better have a plan "B". This IMO should be an other career path that you can pursue while you job hunt for an aviation position. I also feel you are always better to be on the inside looking out, so I recommend to all wannebe's that they take any aviation related work because it gets their foot in the door and can be the stepping stone to a flying position.

Bottom line.

A) There are at least 5 and probably closer to 10 , 200 hr CPL MEIFR job seekers for every available flying position and the same for the float wannebe's. If a Wannabe did not know this when they started their training than frankly they did not do their homework on flying as a career.

B) Nobody owes you a job just because you just spent 60 K on your training

C) It is entirely possible that no matter how hard you try, the breaks will not go your way, and you will spend years on a ultimately fruitless search for that entry level job.

D) The overall terms and conditions for pilots have been deteriorating for the last 20 years. The best a new guy/gal starting out today can realistically hope for, is to eventually make a modest but livable wage, after enduring probably 5 years or more of below poverty level compensation.

Whether the sacrificies are worth it is ultimately a personal decision. For me the answer has been yes and I still love flying more than anything else I do, but I also knowingly accept the downsides of the business and am cognizant of how lucky I was to get several key opportunities presented to me as I pursued my career.

[JohnnyDrama]

...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Johnny Drama

Do you work for an FTU ?

If you do than IMO you have a moral obligation to disclose that fact as you have a vested interest in encouraging people to take flight training. I have a valid Class 1
Instructor rating as well as a lot of actual 604/702/703/705 operating experience. I still instruct part time because I genuinely enjoy instructing motivated and hard working students.....but I am also upfront with the realities of the business. If after contemplating the facts of life as a wannabe CPL, they still want to pursue their dream, than I will do my best to help make it happen and ensure they are as prepared as possible for the demands of commercial flying.

What specifically in my post do you not agree with ?

[Mihai]

Thanks for the advice iflyforpie!

And no, I don't have my instructors rating... I figured it's not really what I want to do until I'm 30 and then get a job in the bush anyways. Besides, I believe it's another what.... 8,000$ deeper in my pocket.

[Lurch]

...

Odd, I thought BPF was pretty much spot on.

Lurch

[loopa]

Despite Loopa's ad hominem attack, there are some gems in there. This industry is good for some but right now we are in one of the regularly-repeating slumps that we encounter. We suffer from a down economy first, but we frequently benefit from a rising economy first too. Far too many willing to fly for peanuts just to have some way to gain hours. There is a period in our 'careers' that we cannot see (perhaps willful blindness?) any downside to this pursuit - we are willing to go to any crap place to fly, will fly crappy airplanes that were made about the time your father was born and we have the time of our lives. While our friends get married, buying houses, having children, buying new cars, we are struggling in the bush somewhere for crap wages and long, silly hours getting our jollies flying junk food into first nations villages, drinking too much and doing very stupid things with the locals, usually of the opposite sex.

How many pilots end up in the airlines? Just look at the stats for the number of ATPLs and commercials and count the pilots at Westjet or Air Canada. Not good. Then, just to make things really suck, you do get in, you get a seniority number and then the airline goes tits up. Canadian Pacific, Pacific Western, Time Air, Wardair, Nordair, Jetsgo - you name it. Westjet is healthy right now, but even Air Canada, the so-called legacy carrier, has been bankrupt. Now you are out on the street, if you find a seat in anything large at all you will be starting completely over again.

Best of luck to you - I would NEVER encourage anybody to go into aviation, especially when there is such a rush to have pilotless aircraft.

I have a lot of respect for you Xsbank. If you read my post properly, you would have seen I gave the probability of me being wrong. I wasn't attacking him. Rather, I was was identifying something that came across as a sense of entitlement. I critiqued it, provided a solution, and a purpose for not acting that way - if in fact I was correct. Looks as though I wasn't, and that it was me reading in to it too much. Like mentioned earlier, rather speak up and get shot, than not speak up and see somebody make a big mistake.

Also, thank you for the very helpful post on constructive resumes and cover letters. They're awesome man. New Guy, you should look into it.

All the best to you Xs

[westcoasting]

Quit complaining.... Go out and get a ramp job, and be thankful that someone gave you that opportunity, you think someone is going to hand you a job because you spent a bunch of money and are "following your dream"... Jesus

[JohnnyDrama]

What has been said in this thread is not totally incorrect. I do agree with a lot of the things people have said. What I don't like is when people post negative things. It doesn't help anyone. Do you not remember what it was like to start out? I think people should try a bit harder to give useful advice. Does it really help anyone to say things like...

"I am also appalled......that unfortunately there are still so many wannabe's that do not appear to understand the realities of this business and in particular the enduring difficulty in getting that crucial first job. It is not impossible...but it has been, is right now, and will be for the future, unlikely you will immediately secure a good job right out of flight school"

I am not trying to start shit. Only trying to add some positivity to what can at times be a very negative community.

And no I am not a flight instructor. I never have been. I started my career during times that were as bad or worse than now and I also came here looking for advice. I

Mihai...Yes the rating will set you back at least 8K but it can be a good way to get into the industry. I know of 2 schools that are almost always looking for people. If thats not what you want to do then don't do it. If you keep working hard and doing what you can to get your name out there, something will come up. The more flexible you are, the easier you will find work.

[Big Pistons Forever]

JD

I gave what from my viewpoint is an accurate assesment of what I think is the reality for aspiring commercial pilots. I wish I could paint a rosier picture but the fact is flying has always been a tough business especially when you are trying to get that crucial first job.

FTU's are in general not painting an accurate picture of what is waiting for their students. Also there is a portion of every crop of newbies that are IMO not truely committed to flying and are only doing it because daddy is paying or they figure they deserve a job because they payed a lot of money for their training. The sooner these guys/gals wake up and smell the coffee the better for everyone.

The bottom line is if you really want to make flying your lifes work than more likely than not you will eventually succeed but you should be prepared for the probability that the first part of your career will be a long hard slog. That may sound negative.....but I prefer to think it simply sounds realistic.

[Rowdy]

It is the sad truth.. If you really cant do anything else and are desperate to do anything to fly.. be prepared to give up on any of the niceties and good things all of your friends will have. This industry shits on the new guys and breaks are hard to come by, but again if you're a decent sort with a good attitude, willing to sacrifice (because of all the other dum dum out there messing it up) pretty much everything for the next 5-6 yrs I'm sure you can make it work.

there are three things that piss people off majorly of fresh cpls.. A sense of entitlement, A know it all attitude and obviously the lack of research thats been done thus far.

Get out there, Know your shit, suck it up for a while and you'll get where you want to go.

Do three things now to help yer search : 1) go buy an aviation business directory 2) decide if you wanna go wheels vfr, floats or ifr and narrow your hunt 3) network network network. Basically call everyone. Be nice to EVERYONE.

I started in the same place in 2004 and I'm FINALLY somewhere decent. 6yrs of scrounging and blown relationships, no money, no fixed addresse.. We all go through it.

Good Luck to you!

[JohnnyDrama]

"FTU's are in general not painting an accurate picture of what is waiting for their students. Also there is a portion of every crop of newbies that are IMO not truely committed to flying and are only doing it because daddy is paying or they figure they deserve a job because they payed a lot of money for their training."

I agree with this 100%. There are better ways to educate the new guys though. You said that it is realistic and not negative but you can make realistic things sound negative or positive.

BPF and Rowdy, both of you make good points that are for the most part very true. I know that when I first started out and came on here I got a bit turned off from some of the comments I read. There were a few people who did give good and positive advice that helped me out a lot. It's pretty easy to get discouraged when you are in the early stages.

[iflyforpie]

Maybe they ought to make warning labels before you enroll in Commercial training. Like they have on cigarette packages...

[xsbank]

Loopa, thank you for your kind words.

Its very easy to blame the victim when something bad happens to them, particularly common on this site so I reacted to the effort that you took to point out his (possible) shortcomings - I apologize.

Having said that, how the hell could you go out and get licensed up and not know what the hell this industry will do to you? Surely you must have had an inkling? You must learn to drink beer, the cheap stuff, then you will find out that "the safety meeting," always conducted in a bar, is your greatest source of gossip, BS and networking.
Research
Network
More research
More networking
Road trips (long, lonely ones)
Focus on your goal and narrow the field
Get a career to fall back on - you will get laid off a few times and another skill will pay the bills.
Did I mention research and networking?

And read the resume thread: you will need to drop one off at every place you hit on your road trip.

I just passed yet another IFR PPC tonight - good to go! See, you never stop learning.

[loopa]

No worries my friend !

[x-wind]

Jonny http://www.cbc.ca/thedebaters/clip_positivethinking.mp3

Mr. Mihai, I'm empathetic to your situation. There is a post 'for the new pilots in this industry' or something that's a list in the general section. One of the points wisely advised not to read into Avcanada too much or to merely take it as advisory; not disputing the industry state but, perhaps, you could benefit from not reading this stuff.

Godspeed.

[ywgflyboy]

Everyone is sooooo negative here.



There are now daily job postings on the job board.

Go throw some bags some bags around if you don't meet the hour requirements for any of them.

And if you want to get back on the positive track visit http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo/ and then never come back here.

[specvis]

Pass the boeing joint over here.