One answer to fix the industry

[down and out]

Just throwing it out there...

...but what if all the pilots who already have jobs apply for other jobs just so they can turn it down blaming pay, conditions, whateverelseneedsimproving...etc. Do you think if there were enough people doing this, would it change anything? Try and dilute the work for nothing applicants.

Say dedicate the next 2 years to this "industry change movement" and brainstorm other actions like this that we can do to try and improve things.

[ragbagflyer]

Limit the number of entrants.

[4hrstovegas]

Limit the number of entrants.

+1

... and limit the number of foreign pilots allowed to get work visas when so many qualified nationals are floating about.

[loopa]

Do it the European Way. There should only be a few recognized schools across the country, that are sponsored by airlines perhaps. When airlines need people, they train cadets and send them in.

Smaller schools can be sponsored by bush operators.

Basically, when the work source controls the training source, the supply and demand curve should pan out pretty well !

And create a system where people:

a) who have a sense of entitlement
b) who are idiots
c) who don't deserve to be here

are weeded out. Take the number of stories you've heard about people doing something stupid in a repetitive manner... I think I've heard hundreds by now. That could potentially be hundred jobs right there that could be filled by people who are more qualified.

How to measure who is qualified?

A fair system that truly measures somebody's qualifications and abilities should also be instilled, so that there's no argument as for why somebody is where they are. A simple written, and flight test shouldn't be all. So many times I hear "so and so is there because of him or her."

The standards need to be increased. Look at the college programs; in a class of 30 graduates, how many actually end up having the skills and traits to pursue the professional avenues of aviation? I am leaving it a rhetorical question as I don't have the facts, though I do have an impression that there aren't many. Maybe 1 in 3 actually pursue it. The rest get weeded out by either the de-motivating times of finding a job, are simply clueless and can't be trusted, or never really got flying. Yet they've graduated and are in TC's minds, proficient pilots, and ready for work.

Oh and also, there should be a mandatory course in ground school teaching newbs what kind of attitude to take on in the industry. It should be taught by somebody who is a professional in the industry. I've seriously come across some 150 hour wads who think they're it and take offense when they are corrected. They really think that they are airline pilot's and that they were "born" to fly; it's sad, as they're driving them selves off a cliff, pretty soon. Curiosity and eagerness to learn is a trait that I think will take people far, and if not instilled from the beginning, is potentially grounds to a very shaky career for a certain individual. Out of every guy that I know from the airlines, they all listen to me and give me an equal opportunity to say something. That's because these boys know that they're always going to learn something new, so they never pass something off as unimportant, be it from a low or a high timer. I find that being humble and always reviewing your weakness areas is grounds for success !

My 2 cents from a 300 hour perspective which could virtually mean nothing

[Puddle Jumper]

Limit the number of entrants.

+1

... and limit the number of foreign pilots allowed to get work visas when so many qualified nationals are floating about.

Oh stop whining! Grow up and grow a pair you wheeble!

[4hrstovegas]

Oh stop whining! Grow up and grow a pair you wheeble!

Thanks for the advice. Super. In the meantime... do you have an actual opinion on this? Do you support a system whereby foreign pilots are brought in to fill positions that could be amply filled by dozens of nationals who hold the same experience and qualifications? I'm not talking about expats who already have the right to work here by birth, marriage, etc. I'm talking about foreign pilots with nothing more than a resume, just like everyone else. You don't believe in governement protectionism of its taxpayers?

In case you need further translation, this is a question about hiring practices by airlines, not the intentions of pilots.

... or did I touch a nerve, there, MATE?

[North Shore]

What's wrong with the current system? People who are 'qualified' in the eyes of an employer are hired, those who are not, aren't. No matter if they are homegrown or 'foreign.'

[iflyforpie]

Limit the number of entrants.

I'd agree with that, but only because I already have my CPL. I'm sure everyone's opinion would change if it was going to directly affect them in a negative way, but be positive for the industry overall..

[Rowdy]

a proffesional pilots association... and then a limit on the number of new CPL's minted every year.

[Puddle Jumper]

Oh stop whining! Grow up and grow a pair you wheeble!

You don't believe in governement protectionism of its taxpayers? You're right, I don't belive!
... or did I touch a nerve, there, MATE? and Nope!

Oh dear, I think you'd give a Tylenol a headache with this banter MATE!

Hey ho, my turn to ask you a question; and I expect a straight answer! Have you ever travelled outside of the continent of America for more than two weeks?

[Invertago]

Just have patience the pilot shortage is just a few months away, my flight instructor told me so!

[slam525i]

I may just be a PPL, but I think not being nor wanting a CPL gives me a bit of perspective. I hope you don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents.

Here's the basic problem, and it's a simple economics problem. Over-supply; Under-demand.

We love flying. We'd fly for free if we could. That's why there's a huge supply. But given that there are only a certain number of pilot jobs out there, we ended up under-bidding each other until we get to the point of "self-sponsored training/FO" issues come up.

The reason why we're all so defensive and "sense-of-entitlement" about this is because learning to fly is not cheap nor easy. We work so hard, we're not that common, and what we do is very specialized, but the financial rewards are so small that it just seems like we deserve more. In reality, economics dictate that we really aren't worth that much, not matter what we like to think.

Asking TC to change standards isn't right. (It may help, but it isn't right.) TC is there to regulate, to make sure pilots operate safely. Arguments can be made on whether current standards are too lax, but this should be about safety, not jobs. Whether we can find a job or not is beside the point.

Limiting foreign entrants is not as simple as you think. Diplomats have to think about other industries doing business in other countries, not just pilots.

A simple answer to the problem? There isn't one. As long as we love flying and we want to fly, we will continue to be worth peanuts. Look on the bright side though, if flight training gets anymore expensive, most people won't be able to afford it! (I started in 1997 at $65 for a 152 wet!).

[Puddle Jumper]

+1

Nice post Slam. At last here's someone writing with calm and measured reasoning - happy days!

[square]

Or just go to another operator like that one in Quebec that WILL take your money for hiring you, then maybe you could get a job without really trying.

[Doc]

Try and dilute the work for nothing applicants.

This, from someone who, from a very reliable source on another thread, offered to PAY for his own training? Which would make you, a work for less than nothing applicant?
You have an opinion on everything. Too bad, it's not a learned opinion.
I'd make sure my own lawn was mowed, before complaining about your neighbour's weeds?
Why on earth would pilots apply for jobs they have no intention of taking?? What if (pay attention....for you, this may be rocket science) their present employer caught wind of the fact they were applying elsewhere?

[P6SM]

Yeahhhh.....Doc has a good point. If you're going to make posts about your hardships in aviation, do it in a way that will conceal your identity. Pretty much everyone in the industry is on this forum.

[iflyforpie]

Try and dilute the work for nothing applicants.

See, regardless of who's doing it for what reason, this is flawed logic.

It is a supply/demand situation. So you have 300TT and a heartbeat and you are one of the lucky ones who has a job; and you decide to throw some resumes out there and turn down the job. All some CP or owner is going to do is say 'boy, that guy sure is an a-hole', and continue down the list of the hundred other hopefuls. Whether he is offering a fair wage or not is not the point. In his mind he has justified the wage offered and conditions of employment (bonds, training, or whatever) and now he has a name he might pass on to somebody else not to hire.

I see where you are getting though. I have refused more than one job in aviation solely based on pay or lack thereof, but I wasn't fishing trying to create an artificial market condition. Somebody who had less liabilities or inhibitions than me took the job and are probably enjoying a more 'successful' career than I am because of it.

The operators are holding all the cards. If an operator is ruthless enough, all they have to do is wait for a pilot to be desperate enough. They probably won't have to wait for long. All anybody has to do is wave five low figures and a twin or turbine in front of the average pilot and all morals and dignity go out the window.

The other side of the coin is, you might actually find an operator who pays decently (they do exist, even for low-timers). So who is part of the problem now if you decide to jump ship for greener grass after the first company has indoctrinated you?

They should make a reality show about this... Oh... wait...

[fingersmac]

Do it the European Way. There should only be a few recognized schools across the country, that are sponsored by airlines perhaps. When airlines need people, they train cadets and send them in.

The European way? What, like $100K+ flight training, Self-Sponsored Type Ratings and Pay-to-Fly schemes (P2F)? Is that what you're referring to? I'm guessing you're referring to airline cadet programs like Lufthansa, KLM/Air France and BA but those are few and far between. Like Canada, Europe has a glut of new minted fATPL holders that are finding it extremely difficult to find work.

[Lost Lake]

Simple solution: Tell the f%^king colleges to quit lying to their prospective students about employment opportunties, the financial, social and long term opportunities available. These poor suckers expect t` be hired by tier 2 or 3 operators fresh out of school. I dare 1 low life college instructor to challenge my statement!!!! Hookers make money for 30 minutes of worthwile work. Before they take your money, you know exactly what you will get.They can look their customer in the eye after they have performed their job with respect. The colleges are rip off artists and can't even do that!

College instructors,,, bring it on.

[down and out]

Try and dilute the work for nothing applicants.

This, from someone who, from a very reliable source on another thread, offered to PAY for his own training? Which would make you, a work for less than nothing applicant?
You have an opinion on everything. Too bad, it's not a learned opinion.
I'd make sure my own lawn was mowed, before complaining about your neighbour's weeds?
Why on earth would pilots apply for jobs they have no intention of taking?? What if (pay attention....for you, this may be rocket science) their present employer caught wind of the fact they were applying elsewhere?

Jeeze I just can't win on here can I?

I said I would pay for one more flight and if it was up to flight test standard can we continue. I felt confident my next flight was going to be much better than the last. I was then hoping they would see I had worked hard from my last flight and not end up chargeing me. If I sucked again, sure it's on me. I never said I would pay for all my training

And the suggestion of current pilots applying was just a suggestion...one with a sense of humour and creativity. It wasn't like it was a totally serious suggestion. No wonder there is no room for creativity in aviation, everyone seems to want to bash any new idea.

[iflyforpie]

Jeeze I just can't win on here can I?

It's called your AVCANADA initiation...

[4hrstovegas]

Hey ho, my turn to ask you a question; and I expect a straight answer! Have you ever travelled outside of the continent of America for more than two weeks?

You mean ASIDE from getting drunk at all-inclusive resorts during spring break? Hmmm, let's see. I've lived in 4 different countries other than Canada, and travelled to 21 others. I've worked in three of those other countries, and in one way or another, had to provide qualifications that made me unique from each country's pool of domestic applicants. In two of those case, I ran businesses and was only allowed to work if I provided local employment. I hired foreigners, too, but was limited to those country's ratios of foreigner-to-national employee ratios, and ONLY when there were no locals looking for work in our field. And as for foreign policy, some of the most dependent countries in the world carefully guard work for those nationals who seek it first. Have a travel... it's a big, beautiful world out there.

[Puddle Jumper]

Hey ho, my turn to ask you a question; and I expect a straight answer! Have you ever travelled outside of the continent of America for more than two weeks?

You mean ASIDE from getting drunk at all-inclusive resorts during spring break? Hmmm, let's see. I've lived in 4 different countries other than Canada, and travelled to 21 others. I've worked in three of those other countries, and in one way or another, had to provide qualifications that made me unique from each country's pool of domestic applicants. In two of those case, I ran businesses and was only allowed to work if I provided local employment. I hired foreigners, too, but was limited to those country's ratios of foreigner-to-national employee ratios, and ONLY when there were no locals looking for work in our field. And as for foreign policy, some of the most dependent countries in the world carefully guard work for those nationals who seek it first. Have a travel... it's a big, beautiful world out there.

So what's the problem with Canadian employers doing the same thing?! What would you have done if you couldn’t employ foreigners in your overseas businesses? Would you have employed a domestic applicant with little or no experience and then invested a lot of your business capital getting them to a standard suitable, obviously not!

Question: Johnny foreigner pilot travels to Canada with JAR & TC ATPL, 4000 total, 3500 on a 738 and a Canadian work visa. They apply to a Canadian 738 operator that’s looking for experienced 738 pilots with fast PIC upgrade potential. Canadian pilot with TC ATPL, 4000 total, and 700 on a 738 goes for the same job. As a business owner, who would you employ?

Canada does have suitable employment protection in place, I’ve seen it work. However, Canada is a country that's growing fast, and it will need more and more experienced foreign employees as it grows, and as someone mentioned earlier, it’s not a tap the government can just turn off! I’m afraid it’s something you’ll just need to come to terms with!

Also, with the advent of the “open skies” policy in place between Canada and Europe, I don’t think it’ll be long before you see European companies coming to Canada and employing Ry****r tactics for recruitment. It’s nothing personal, it’s just business. Unfortunately, we as pilots are our worst enemy. We love to fly, we love it so much we’ll do almost anything to achieve it, and long may it last I say. The day flying turns into a mundane job for me, is the day I’ll give it up!!

Buy the way, I’m currently living and working 2500 miles away, 5000 miles if you’re on the West coast!

[rocco1]

This kind of argument happens when anyone who wants to become a pilot, doesn`t research enough in what his going through. Despite what everybody says, this profession doesn`t start when you get your CPL...not eather when get the first job....But it starts when YOU DECIDE that this is the profession for your life, not matter what. Taking the good and the bad of it. Now, if you choose another profession, or if you talk with other profession employees, they might tell you that is not that great eather in their job . The Gov of canada regulating the number of licences?..no no, they have more important things to do! A smart move, would be simply getting another degree or other skills that will keep you employed up to retaierment. But I know that a pilot, rarely would get his hands durty!

anyway...good luck to all of you

[LegoMan]

As a former pilot I'll give my perspective and comparison from a different industry....music. I own a concert promotion/artist management company. New bands, like new pilots are eager, excited and willing to work hard in terrible conditions and for almost no pay to get a shot at making it big and getting experience. My concerts feature 5 indie artists each show even bringing in huge crowds for me. You'd be surprised how many bands are desperate to play for free. As the owner I rake in all the cash, while these bands put out all the effort. There are thousands of bands just like pilots all looking for their shot...the winner at the end is the owners of the companies. Best of luck to you all.