Aerobatics

[R2000/1830]

What class instructors rating do you need to get your aerobatics instructors rating or do you need to be an instructor at all.



PS. Please don’t move this post to the question forum, no one looks at that forum.

[Right Seat Captain]

If you check the CARs, you'll find that there is a seperate Aerobatics Instructor Rating with two classes, I and II. You do not need a regular instructor rating to get the aerobatics one, however it does reduce the ground portion of the training considerably.

[fougapilot]

To the best of my knowledge, one need not be an instructor to become an aerobatics instructor. The 2 ratings are completely seperate.

However, you need the following:

1. Hold a commercial or ATP,
2. Hold a "Statement of Aerobatics Competency" issued by TC or a letter from a Class 1 (or 2) aerobatic instructor certifing one is competent to perform the required manoeuvers.

For all the info, check CARs 421.91
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... ds/421.htm

D

[R2000/1830]

Thanks everyone, now I just need to find a school in Alberta to do this.

[Right Seat Captain]

I'm not sure about your neck of the woods, but around this side of Canada, most Aerobatic Instructors are freelance. But on that note, one does not need to be a instructor to teach aerobatics, since there is not actual aerobatics 'rating'. Basically instructors teach other instructors...

Sometimes the better aerobatic pilots out there don't have an instructor rating, but sell their time usually with time on their plane.

Good Luck!

[R2000/1830]

Right seat captain, there is an aerobatics instructors rating its in the cars as I have just found out from the people on this site.

Thanks

[D5GRVTY]

Which part of Alberta are you in? Anywhere close to YYC? If you are, I highly recommend a fellow by the name of Doug Jenkins. Been flying aero longer than I've been alive, teachs on some excellent a/c an alround good guy. PM me if you want more details. I'm sure a few people on this board will vouch for Doug's credibility.

[R2000/1830]

Thanks I will look into him

[looproll]

http://www.fly-aerobatics.ca/jenkinsaviation/

Doug is the one to see if you are around YYC. I have done aerobatic and tailwheel training with him in a Citabria and Decathlon. It was a lot of fun and I learned a ton.

[Right Seat Captain]

Right seat captain, there is an aerobatics instructors rating its in the cars as I have just found out from the people on this site.

Thanks

No, you've mistaken it for an Aerobatics Instructor Rating. But one does not need the instructor rating to teach or do aerobatics.

[Aeros]

But one does not need the instructor rating to teach or do aerobatics.

You do not need the aerobatics instructor rating to fly aerobatics. You DO require one to teach aerobatics to others.

The Class II rating simply lets you teach others. The Class I rating lets you train others as aerobatic instructors.

[ahramin]

So how does a regular class IV teach spins to a student without an aerobatic instructor rating then?

[co-joe]

Westpoint at CYBW used to be the only school around for aerobatics with their citabria. There was one at Okotoks? with a zlin 242 no idea if either exist anymore.

Doug Jenkins is a nice guy, he might have access to a citabria since he skins them himself, out of his own strip north of Cochrane. Also if you get a hold of him, ask if Jersey is still around with his Extra 300. I heard he would take people for rides if they pay. It was about 500 an hour back then.

I heard once your airborne and ralphing your guts out, your stuck there for the duration of the flight. You'd have to be bleeding from the ears to get him to turn around and land.

Also Air Combat Canada used to come to CYBW once a year and bang off a whole shit load of rides and ratings. They're the best in Canada. Probably the most expensive, but if I had the cash that's where I'd look first. Have fun.

[co-joe]

Ahramin,

Certain "aerobatic" manoeuvres are part of the flight training syllabus in Canada. With the proper training, a class 4 can teach these aerobatics to students to obtain a license. Stalls, spins, spiral dives, steep turns, lazy eights (my fav), and chandelles are all considered aerobatic. I know of an ex instructor who ended up in front of the Civil Aviation Tribunal for doing steep turns with pax on board. Some stoolie ATC ratted on him... I also know of a brand new PPL who lost his ticket for doing spins with a friend on board.

[fougapilot]

FYI,

CAR 425.21 (10) reads:

(10) A person who conducts flight training for experience in aerobatic manoeuvres shall have:

(a) a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane - Aerobatics; or

(b) a Flight Instructor Rating - Glider - Aerobatics, as appropriate.


It is true that an aerobatic rating does not exist, it is also true that often the most experienced/knowledgable aerobatic pilots do not have an instructor rating (A good frined of mine did 2years with the Snowbirds -#2 and 6 years with the Nothernlights -#2 and never did get an aerobatics instructor but he could probably teach some instructors a trick or two). But the fact remain, even if one can legally self-teach aerobatic, if the choice is made to have someone else teach that person must hold a valid aerobatic instructor rating.

Keep the blue side down

D

[Blue Side Down]

Keep the blue side down

Bingo

[fougapilot]

Another favourite is:

Keep the blue side rolling

[Right Seat Captain]

First of all, to conduct aerobatic manoeuvres, you need the following:

Aerobatic Manoeuvres - Prohibited Areas and Flight Conditions

602.27 No person operating an aircraft shall conduct aerobatic manoeuvres

(a) over a built-up area or an open-air assembly of persons;

(b) in controlled airspace, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.67;

(c) when flight visibility is less than three miles; or

(d) below 2,000 feet AGL, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.02 or 603.67.

There is no mention of any requirement for training.


If you happen to want to bring passengers:

Aerobatic Manoeuvres with Passengers

602.28 No person operating an aircraft with a passenger on board shall conduct an aerobatic manoeuvre unless the pilot-in-command of the aircraft has engaged in

(a) at least 10 hours dual flight instruction in the conducting of aerobatic manoeuvres or 20 hours conducting aerobatic manoeuvres; and

(b) at least one hour of conducting aerobatic manoeuvres in the preceding six months.

If you're going to meet the 10 hour dual flight instruction requirement, sure, you need an instructor, BUT, you can alos meet the 20 hour requirement, which is not required to have an instructor. There is no mention of it, but it probably means 20 hours with you as the PIC, but that depends on interpretation.

Now I'm not saying one should just go out there and start doing inverted spins, but I am saying you can get instruction from a far more qualified aerobatics pilot who doesn't waste his time getting an instructor rating, then go out and practice yourself.

[Right Seat Captain]

I would also like to clarify that I'm not trying to knock those with Aerobatic Instructor Ratings. I'm just saying that one does not need an instructor rating to be a good aerobatics instructor, and does not require it to teach.

[Jaques Strappe]

You guys are talking in circles. I had an aerobatic instructor rating until 1990 when it lapsed.

You do not need to hold a conventional instructor rating as you are not teaching someone how to fly. They already have a licence. You can simply get an aerobatic instructor rating as a "stand alone" rating but you cannot teach abinitio. Or, if you already are an instructor, you can add an aerobatic endorsement to it.

It used to be that you could not do aerobatics with a passenger unless you were an aerobatic instructor giving instruction to a licenced pilot. This has since changed. You can now do aerobatics with a passenger provided you have had proper traing. That would entail a licenced instructor. Not Joe down the street who says he can teach you something.

[Right Seat Captain]

You can now do aerobatics with a passenger provided you have had proper traing. That would entail a licenced instructor. Not Joe down the street who says he can teach you something.

I thought I found the CARs reference above regarding that, basically saying that you don't actually require training from a licenced instructor. Do you know where in the CARs it says that you do require this training?

[fougapilot]

I'm just saying that one does not need an instructor rating to be a good aerobatics instructor, and does not require it to teach.

RSC,

I do agree with you that perhaps the best pilots who could teach aerobatics may not hold an aerobatic instructor, but the CARs are quite clear; You need an aerobatic instructor rating in order to teach aerobatics.

As I previously stated;

CAR 425.21 (10) reads:

(10) A person who conducts flight training for experience in aerobatic manoeuvres shall have:

(a) a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane - Aerobatics; or

(b) a Flight Instructor Rating - Glider - Aerobatics, as appropriate.

My read is if you need to do the 10hrs then the guy must be an instructor. But if you already have the 20hrs, then you can bring a passenger which just happen to be an expert that will provide you with a few pointers and a good debrief.

And BTW, there is en exemption to CAR 602.27 (b) published in the AIP allowing us to conduct aerobatic in controlled airspace.

Cheers,

D

[Right Seat Captain]

fougapilot, I understand what you're saying. However this 'flight training for experience in aerobatic manoeuvres' is somewhat vague. I see it as basically if you want some dual to put in your logbook that says aerobatic training, yes it must be with an instructor. But if I go up with an aerobatic pilot as a passenger, and not log it, yet he teaches me a few things, maybe even let me take the controls, I might learn just as much of not more depending on the pilot. Sure it's not loggable, it's not dual, but I still learnt something.

But nowhere does it say that I need any training whatsoever to go out and conduct aerobatic manoeuvres on my own. (or does it? I can't find it)

Furthermore, if I do decide to bring up passengers, I think CARs 602.28(a) is quite clear:

602.28 No person operating an aircraft with a passenger on board shall conduct an aerobatic manoeuvre unless the pilot-in-command of the aircraft has engaged in
(a) at least 10 hours dual flight instruction in the conducting of aerobatic manoeuvres or 20 hours conducting aerobatic manoeuvres; and
(b) at least one hour of conducting aerobatic manoeuvres in the preceding six months.

It says you need to have done 20 hours of aerobatic manoeuvres. It doesn't say those 20 hours had to be with an instructor of any kind.

I think there was confusion with terminology, because training has been assumed to be the type that one can log as dual. But if someone is learning from a non-instructor rated aerobatic pilot, it's not officially called training, which I have been calling it that.

Perhaps this is some kind of loop hole in the CARs, because as I see it, aerobatic instructors (again not knocking them) are not a necessity. They can make things slightly more convenient since you can fly with passengers and do aerobatic manoeuvres in less time with an instructor, but I'd still suggest some solo practice be wise before showing your friends your new moves.

[fougapilot]

RSC,

I see you point. And I agree, after 10hrs of dual, briging pax may not be the best idea. I have done that myself on many occasions. Taking the local instructor on aerobatic discovery rides and even let a few screw me out of a loop , but the fact is that time can't be logged and only counts as a joy ride. And you are right, nowhere does it say one needs training to do aerobatics. Stupid if you ask me, but regs often are.

D

[hz2p]

The CARs do not legally require you to get any additional training (or licence endorsements or ratings) before you attempt to privately fly:

- aerobatics
- tailwheel
- skiplane
- retractable gear
- fuel injected
- constant speed prop
- 300+ hp
- turbocharged
- geared engines
- pressurized cabin
- over FL 180
- IFR with a IFR GPS you've never seen before

etc, etc, etc. Perhaps pilots could use their brains, and not require Transport to be their brains. If you insist on delegating your decision-making to Transport, you're not much of a pilot IMNSHO.

ORIGINAL IDEA FOLLOWS: before you do something that might hurt and cost a lot if you don't do it right, get some training from someone that has a clue. Note that the person who has a clue may or may not have a pretty piece of paper issued to him by a Tower C bureaucrat who can't do it either.

Sheesh. Use your brains, guys. Has anyone here ever operated a tractor, a chain saw, or even a whipper snipper? Motorized equipment isn't exactly exclusive to aviation.

BIG SECRET FOLLOWS: motorized equipment (eg aircraft) CAN'T READ. They don't know what piece of paper you have in your possesion, or what they say. The equipment responds to your inputs, not your paperwork.