I often pickup a clearance at an airfield that I wont name - but they always give it to me in a very unhelpful, frustrating way. Maybe someone with an ATC background can enlighten me why they do this.

My flight plan goes direct a VOR J5XX VOR etc. etc. They insist on giving me "direct VOR V3XX to J5XX" then they read the next 3 or 4 points of my flight planned route. One day I pushed back a little, gently, and said - "can you give me point where the Victor airway becomes the Jet" to which they replied "oh, they're the exact same thing, just separated vertically" This makes me wonder why the h$ll are they re-clearing me if it's the exact same thing??? In addition, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure an airway has to be defined by a start and finish point, you can't just terminate it in no man's land and sorta pickup another airway. I suppose ATC would get super technical and say that transition happens as I pass through 17,999'.

So I pushed a little more "well, for me to enter that route in my box, I need a way point connecting the two airways" This caused massive confusion and a long silence. So I begrudgingly opened up my maps (sun shades) and found a wa ypoint that co-exists on both the victor and jet airways. I had to tell them "can I have V3XX to ABCDE, J5XX..." they then re-cleared. I could have interpreted what they were saying and let the FMS fly the Jet airway (invisible to them) or gotten out my maps and just used the way point without telling them - BUT, I shouldn't have to. Just about everywhere else in the world I go, I get cleared jet airways right out of the departure airport, even though I'll be climbing through low level airspace in the departure. They're basically giving me flight planned route (although I have to pull out maps (uuhhhh) to confirm this, and brief the other guy so he understands what's programmed) but they're causing great confusion and extra radio chatter with a lot of ATC semantics. I don't mind getting the re-clearance with the victor airway, but why not give me a way point connecting it?

Is ATC assuming I am flying radials along these airways old school style using a VOR? I'm flying an RNAV/FMS equipped aircraft which they should be able to see from my flight plan. Maybe they think they're being helpful (although, if I wanted that clearance, I would have filed it in the first place)?

Why do they insist on reading me 4 or 5 points along my flight plan (which I refuse to read back, I just say "ok, so flight planned route")?

That is bizarre. I see no reason to give a full route clearance if it's the exact same as the flight planned route. I also don't know anyone that clears aircraft via both a victor and jet airway when they are one and the same.

It may potentially be someone in training.

husky wrote:That is bizarre. I see no reason to give a full route clearance if it's the exact same as the flight planned route. I also don't know anyone that clears aircraft via both a victor and jet airway when they are one and the same.

It may potentially be someone in training.

+1

That does sound a little fishy. Without knowing the route, however, it would all be speculations as to the reason. I know that flight planning wants certain fixes and routing in there that seem redundant, but are necessary for the flight data to be automatically sent to the appropriate sectors along the route. Again, I don't think I've ever seen routing with a transition from a Victor to a Jet without a fix at where that will happen.

When reading back a clearance that is unchanged, all you need to give are the SID and transponder code. Training requires controllers to issue the first few fixes even if it is fight planned route, but unless you are told to give the full readback, they should not go after you if you have given the correct SID and code.

Thanks for the info guys.

Just file airport direct the next VOR down the line and then pick up the Jet airway. That way there is no need for any victor airway.

husky wrote:That is bizarre. I see no reason to give a full route clearance if it's the exact same as the flight planned route. I also don't know anyone that clears aircraft via both a victor and jet airway when they are one and the same.

It may potentially be someone in training.

A trainee would only be saying what their OJI has told/taught them to say...