Crash pilot appeals remaining conviction

[EPR]

Mark Tayfel, the Alberta pilot who crash-landed his small plane in Winnipeg in 2002, is appealing his conviction of dangerous operation of an aircraft, the only charge upheld in a previous court ruling. Tayfel was originally found guilty of more serious charges of criminal negligence causing death. However, those were overturned and only the dangerous operation of an aircraft conviction remained.
The paperwork for the appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada was filed on July 14. Normally it takes several months before the top court provides a decision on leave. The court may accept the case and hear the matter. Or it may decline to hear the appeal, leaving the conviction standing.

[CpnCrunch]

If he loses, it will look very bad for him. He clearly did operate his aircraft in a dangerous manner resulting in the death of his passengers, so he should just suck it up and accept that he made a very dumb mistake.

[xsbank]

So 8 years isn't enough punishment for you, Capt Crunch? You think a life-time would be better? Hang him higher, perhaps?

[slowstream]

Sorry, but I have to ask ............ what about the guy who died and his family, when do they stop paying or suffering a price for his negligence?

[Big Pistons Forever]

The pilot screwed the pooch big time.....but so did the Ops manager, CP and the regulator .... all of whom kept the Keystone shit show going untill the inevitable accident. Hanging the pilot is easy..... addressing the root causes of this accident would require real justice to be dispensed, but everybody knows that will never happen

[KAG]

lessons here to be learned. Don't be pushed around by the company, follow the rules, keep your nose clean. It's just not worth it.

[Jack Klumpus]

Who dispatched that airplane for a single pilot IFR flight, without an auto-pilot on it? I know that at keystoned, it's pilot self dispatch, however, question is, who released this airplane from maintenance (twin piston at keystone is a single pilot IFR operation, not two crew, hence the birds need a functioning auto-pilot, as this day was IMC). Who had operational control that day? The owner of keystoned was there that day (that's what the reports claimed).

The owner of keystoned, the ops manager, the chief pilot, what happened to them? I know for a fact that the owner and his son (chief pilot) fly the line, run the company, opened up a brand new hangar, making money, etc.

Lesson learned? Once the shit hits the fan, it's the PIC that will be hung out to dry.

[YYZatcboy]

Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with this accident. Anyone have a link to the report/able to provide a summary of what happened?

Thanks!

[Widow]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 2c0124.asp

[Frank Gallagher]

Who dispatched that airplane for a single pilot IFR flight, without an auto-pilot on it? I know that at keystoned, it's pilot self dispatch, however, question is, who released this airplane from maintenance (twin piston at keystone is a single pilot IFR operation, not two crew, hence the birds need a functioning auto-pilot, as this day was IMC). Who had operational control that day? The owner of keystoned was there that day (that's what the reports claimed).

The owner of keystoned, the ops manager, the chief pilot, what happened to them? I know for a fact that the owner and his son (chief pilot) fly the line, run the company, opened up a brand new hangar, making money, etc.

Lesson learned? Once the shit hits the fan, it's the PIC that will be hung out to dry.

Autopilots though very capable devices are not advanced enough to fuel the aircraft for you.

[YYZatcboy]

Thank you Widow.

[Jack Klumpus]

Autopilots though very capable devices are not advanced enough to fuel the aircraft for you.

For single pilot IFR, a functioning auto-pilot is a requirement. The fact that the person who has operting control allowed this flight to go on, reflects on the working atmosphere of the company, from the top down. The PIC is the one who turned the props, and crashed the plane. In parallel, the chief pilot is also to be blamed. Had the chief pilot not allowed this plane to be used illegaly, this specific accident may have never happened.

[Brown Bear]

Autopilots though very capable devices are not advanced enough to fuel the aircraft for you.

For single pilot IFR, a functioning auto-pilot is a requirement. The fact that the person who has operting control allowed this flight to go on, reflects on the working atmosphere of the company, from the top down. The PIC is the one who turned the props, and crashed the plane. In parallel, the chief pilot is also to be blamed. Had the chief pilot not allowed this plane to be used illegaly, this specific accident may have never happened.

While we're at it, lets blame his dog, cat and Mom.
Yes, a functioning auto-pilot is a requirement.
But, ya know what? The pilot got into an airplane with a non-functioning auto-pilot. And, he knowingly ran the bloody thing out of gas, causing a death. End of story. Blame the company "culture" all you want....he did it. He had the opportunity and the right to say "NO". Tough titty said the kitty!

[Randleman]

+1 Brown Bear

The pilot screwed the pooch big time.....but so did the Ops manager, CP and the regulator .... all of whom kept the Keystone shit show going untill the inevitable accident. Hanging the pilot is easy..... addressing the root causes of this accident would require real justice to be dispensed, but everybody knows that will never happen

Why what did they do? This accident was purely pilot error. He took off very well knowing he did not have enough fuel, and did not say anything, not even when he knew he was out.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Randleman

You are wrong. The pilot took off with what he thought was "just enough" fuel which obviously turned ot to be 5 min short of enough. He then handled his low fuel emergency extremely poorly. Should he be held accountable for his failing , absolutely. But the fact that he was carrying "just enough" is a reflection that keystone pilots that insisted they pack more than just enough were fired. Keystone pilots that insisted that the equipment legally required for single pilot IFR was actually working
, were fired. Pilots that did not push weather, were fired.

As a wannebe low time commercial pilot it is easy for you to stand on your high horse and say "It is all the pilots fault". When and it will probably be "when" not "if" you end up working for an operator that pushes the pilots you will find that there is a lot of grey in "safe operations". I was in that situation earlier in my career and it is shocking how easy it is to let things slip a little to keep the job untill like me you are driving home after work and realise you are now doing things as a matter of course that you would never have done 6 months earlier. That day I did a U turn drove back to the airport and told the CP I was never going to fly for them again. I consider that the best pilot decsion making of my entire career. These conditions did not exist because the pilots wanted to fly airplanes without the required equipment and
not enough fuel they existed because the Owner, Ops Manager, and CP cared more about making money than operating safely and TC turned a blind eye despite plenty of evidence of gross misconduct.

The buck stops at the PIC ...as it should.... too bad all the others that deliberately encouraged dangerous practices always seem to get a pass....

[xsbank]

Blah blah blah, the pilot screwed up. So its been 8 years and this guy has been living under this conviction and he thinks he has atoned for his transgressions enough so he is asking to have his punishment declared over, served, finished.

How long do you think is an appropriate amount of time to be punished? The courts thought that his criminal negligence was wrong, how long would you lynch-mob law-experts deem appropriate? Do you make your kid stand in the corner for three days to teach him a lesson when he screws up?

You narrow-minded, self-righteous, sanctimonious bozos. Even Karla Homolka got let out after 12 years. This guy did something that MOST of you either have done or will do, ie something stupid in an airplane, yet so far you got away with it and he didn't; you have made some dumb error and NEARLY crashed; you have forgotten some detail that NEARLY killed your passengers; you screwed with weather when you should have said "no" and you NEARLY bought it; you busted minimums "just this once."

Have none of you ever landed somewhere with less fuel than you thought you had?

Are you trying to get this guy to carry all your guilt?

If I ever have to fly with any of you dorks at least I'll know I'll be really really safe because you are all perfect - paragons of aviation virtue.

[Widow]

This is why it pisses me off when law suits are settled out of court. Just how much did Keystone and the Attorney General (Transport) have to pay to keep thier complicity out of the public eye?!!?

[Randleman]

This is why it pisses me off when law suits are settled out of court. Just how much did Keystone and the Attorney General (Transport) have to pay to keep thier complicity out of the public eye?!!?

It was fairly simple. All the boss from Keystone did was say to Transport "you conduct regular audits at my operation, and have found nothing wrong...therefore, YOU Are not doing your job!" and it kept transport out.
Which just proves how powerless transport canada really is.

[Widow]

Yeah, the owner's of Wapiti tried to use that defense too ... even tried to sue Transport for failing to regulate them, if I recall correctly.

[xsbank]

Whether or not there was any nefarious dealings, we all think there were, which is just as bad. They raped the pilot yet they were all guilty - a little diversion like burning some old cop cars and everybody is totally distracted from the real issues. Easy to do when this mob just needs a small prod and they start screaming for blood, any easy target, and the real issues vanish.

The Keystone management, TC, you name it. They all escaped scrutiny and they all carry on, business as usual.

There is a lesson for all pilots to be learned here: screw up and you are on your own. TC, RCMP, the courts, the insurance company, civil lawsuits, your peers, all scream for your blood if you survive - if you don't, you get your estate sued, no insurance coverage so your kids starve (you DO have life insurance, right?) your reputation is trashed ('pilot error') and you, only you, are seen to be a monumental f*ck-up.

If you do survive, you get Tayfelled.

[Randleman]

Randleman

You are wrong. The pilot took off with what he thought was "just enough" fuel which obviously turned ot to be 5 min short of enough. He then handled his low fuel emergency extremely poorly. Should he be held accountable for his failing , absolutely. But the fact that he was carrying "just enough" is a reflection that keystone pilots that insisted they pack more than just enough were fired. Keystone pilots that insisted that the equipment legally required for single pilot IFR was actually working
, were fired. Pilots that did not push weather, were fired.

I think you are making a judgement based on a companies reputation. Talk and talk and talk is not always accurate my friend. I used to work for the Stone back in the day, and I know the story fairly well. I won't speculate on whether or not he thought he had enough or knew he didn't. I would be inclined to agree with you, he thought he did, but when he realized he didn't, did nothing.

However, I can tell you you are wrong to say that pilots who do not push weather at Keystone are fired. Sure there is pressure to do it, but ultimately the bosses DO respect the PICs decision. Sure they label them as "lazy", but they do not outright fire them. And the pressure to fly in bad weather or overweight does not come from the bosses. It comes from the passengers. In fact, if the Ops manager there ever found out about you flying overweight, you would be kicked in your can so hard you wouldn't know what hit you.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Randleman

You are wrong. The pilot took off with what he thought was "just enough" fuel which obviously turned ot to be 5 min short of enough. He then handled his low fuel emergency extremely poorly. Should he be held accountable for his failing , absolutely. But the fact that he was carrying "just enough" is a reflection that keystone pilots that insisted they pack more than just enough were fired. Keystone pilots that insisted that the equipment legally required for single pilot IFR was actually working
, were fired. Pilots that did not push weather, were fired.

I think you are making a judgement based on a companies reputation. Talk and talk and talk is not always accurate my friend. I used to work for the Stone back in the day, and I know the story fairly well. I won't speculate on whether or not he thought he had enough or knew he didn't. I would be inclined to agree with you, he thought he did, but when he realized he didn't, did nothing.

However, I can tell you you are wrong to say that pilots who do not push weather at Keystone are fired. Sure there is pressure to do it, but ultimately the bosses DO respect the PICs decision. Sure they label them as "lazy", but they do not outright fire them. And the pressure to fly in bad weather or overweight does not come from the bosses. It comes from the passengers. In fact, if the Ops manager there ever found out about you flying overweight, you would be kicked in your can so hard you wouldn't know what hit you.

Were you flying PIC on MEIFR ops for Keystone ? ....If not .....well rampies do not get a vote ...

[Randleman]

nope, never flew there. Got a better opportunity elsewhere before my time came.
Who cares what I worked? I was still exposed to the company, and I saw everything that went on first hand. You on the other hand? To suggest the title of your job or what you fly is what defines you is mental.

[Flying Low]

All the other factors are "fluff". This pilot knowingly took off with less fuel than required and without the required equipment for this flight. PERIOD.

Was the company culture crap...probably. But ultimately these companies cannot exist without the pilots willing to bow to the pressure. Oh...and for those of you who tell me the pilot had to keep the job to feed his/her family. BULLS$%T...go work somewhere else. No pilot jobs? Fine...get a job outside aviation. It is not worth your life or the lives of your crew/passengers just so you can build hours to get your dream job.

[iflyforpie]

I've refused to work for people based on their reputation and gave up commercial flying for two years.

One was the most violated company at YCW. The owner wound up getting busted for running drugs in a clapped out Navajo, (which ironically was inspected and signed out with a million deferred snags by yours truly).