Judicial review of a CHRT decision
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Judicial review of a CHRT decision
The Canadian Press
Date: Thursday Jul. 29, 2010 1:05 PM ET
TORONTO — The Federal Court of Canada says it will conduct a judicial review of a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision that called into question the ability of unions and employers to negotiate mandatory retirement ages for all Air Canada pilots.
Hearings will proceed starting on Nov. 22 in Ottawa and run until Nov. 25, the court said on Thursday.
The challenge to the tribunal decision was brought by the Air Canada Pilots Association, which wants to be able to negotiate a standard retirement age for pilots, which is currently age 60.
"In our view, the law and previous court decisions clearly support our members' right to negotiate their age of retirement," Capt. Paul Strachan, president of the pilots association, said in a statement.
The pilots association asked the federal court to review a decision made in 2009 that it believes "erred at law by ignoring Supreme Court of Canada decisions which found it acceptable for employers and employees to determine a retirement age through the collective bargaining process."
The tribunal ruled that Section 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act cannot be justified under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a reasonable limit prescribed by law that can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
That section of the human rights law states that the practice is not discriminatory if an employee is terminated because he or she has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in similar positions.
As a result of this interpretation, the tribunal refused to apply this section of the human rights act in considering a complaint regarding the association's collective agreement, which contains a contractual obligation for Air Canada pilots to retire at age 60.
If left unchallenged, the tribunal's decision would potentially have an impact on the wages and benefits of the Air Canada pilots and thousands of other federally-regulated employees working under collective agreements containing a fixed age of retirement, the union said.
The Air Canada Pilots Association is the largest professional pilot group in Canada, representing the more than 3,000 pilots who operate Air Canada's mainline fleet
Date: Thursday Jul. 29, 2010 1:05 PM ET
TORONTO — The Federal Court of Canada says it will conduct a judicial review of a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision that called into question the ability of unions and employers to negotiate mandatory retirement ages for all Air Canada pilots.
Hearings will proceed starting on Nov. 22 in Ottawa and run until Nov. 25, the court said on Thursday.
The challenge to the tribunal decision was brought by the Air Canada Pilots Association, which wants to be able to negotiate a standard retirement age for pilots, which is currently age 60.
"In our view, the law and previous court decisions clearly support our members' right to negotiate their age of retirement," Capt. Paul Strachan, president of the pilots association, said in a statement.
The pilots association asked the federal court to review a decision made in 2009 that it believes "erred at law by ignoring Supreme Court of Canada decisions which found it acceptable for employers and employees to determine a retirement age through the collective bargaining process."
The tribunal ruled that Section 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act cannot be justified under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a reasonable limit prescribed by law that can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
That section of the human rights law states that the practice is not discriminatory if an employee is terminated because he or she has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in similar positions.
As a result of this interpretation, the tribunal refused to apply this section of the human rights act in considering a complaint regarding the association's collective agreement, which contains a contractual obligation for Air Canada pilots to retire at age 60.
If left unchallenged, the tribunal's decision would potentially have an impact on the wages and benefits of the Air Canada pilots and thousands of other federally-regulated employees working under collective agreements containing a fixed age of retirement, the union said.
The Air Canada Pilots Association is the largest professional pilot group in Canada, representing the more than 3,000 pilots who operate Air Canada's mainline fleet
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
So, it would appear that ACPA wasn't happy with the media coverage generated by its obviously discriminatory Memorandum of Agreement that places the two over age 60 pilots into the entry-level Embraer First Officer position normally given to new-hire pilots, so it decided to regurgitate some old news.
The parties to the judicial review were advised by the Federal Court over three months ago of the specific November hearing dates assigned, so ACPA issued a press release yesterday to let everyone know about this information in a timely manner. Of course, that press release wouldn't have had anything to do with the articles published Monday in the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star highlighting a point of view on the polar opposite side of the spectrum, would it?
http://www.thestar.com/business/compani ... strictions
The Toronto Star article included this gem by ACPA:
"The union spokesperson said pilots are aware of the mandatory retirement clause when they sign their employment contract."
Were you aware that individual employees covered by a collective agreement sign an employment contract?
The parties to the judicial review were advised by the Federal Court over three months ago of the specific November hearing dates assigned, so ACPA issued a press release yesterday to let everyone know about this information in a timely manner. Of course, that press release wouldn't have had anything to do with the articles published Monday in the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star highlighting a point of view on the polar opposite side of the spectrum, would it?
http://www.thestar.com/business/compani ... strictions
The Toronto Star article included this gem by ACPA:
"The union spokesperson said pilots are aware of the mandatory retirement clause when they sign their employment contract."
Were you aware that individual employees covered by a collective agreement sign an employment contract?
Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Ray,
how pertinent is this point?
Would the signing of an individual employment contract change anything here or would it change anything about the message of the statement? Would it get you and your group out of meddling with my career and employment earnings? Please let me know because we will all go sign it right away.
The intent of the message is understood i.e. we all knew the deal we signed up for and we all continue to ratify the Agreement with this parameter (Age 60) intact.
Why all the focus on this uninteresting point?
A more interesting point to most is: why did you and your cohorts continue to enjoy the benefits of those retiring before you without taking any issue with it? I think we all understand this much more interesting point.
how pertinent is this point?
Would the signing of an individual employment contract change anything here or would it change anything about the message of the statement? Would it get you and your group out of meddling with my career and employment earnings? Please let me know because we will all go sign it right away.
The intent of the message is understood i.e. we all knew the deal we signed up for and we all continue to ratify the Agreement with this parameter (Age 60) intact.
Why all the focus on this uninteresting point?
A more interesting point to most is: why did you and your cohorts continue to enjoy the benefits of those retiring before you without taking any issue with it? I think we all understand this much more interesting point.
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Disco,
Please leave poor Raymond alone...He is a lawyer and a wanna- be politician. This talk of honor, trust, truthfulness, and integrity has in all likelihood damaged his self - respect. As we all know, these two professions are highly regarded by society in general, and are deemed to be the cream of the crop. ...
ammended. So as to not be sued, or taken to the HRT, by the above.
Please leave poor Raymond alone...He is a lawyer and a wanna- be politician. This talk of honor, trust, truthfulness, and integrity has in all likelihood damaged his self - respect. As we all know, these two professions are highly regarded by society in general, and are deemed to be the cream of the crop. ...
ammended. So as to not be sued, or taken to the HRT, by the above.
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
This is unbelievable. You consider my position at more than three times the pay and a schedule I can only dream of discriminatory for you and yours. Tell me again how this is not about unprecedented greed and selfishness. On second thought spare me. I am getting tired of your rhetoric. This whole thing is like the slave owners claiming discrimination because the slaves aren't working as hard without being whipped. "Your Honour, they are making us whip them hard. It's hurting my arm." Unbelievable.Raymond Hall wrote:obviously discriminatory Memorandum of Agreement that places the two over age 60 pilots into the entry-level Embraer First Officer position normally given to new-hire pilots
"Nothing is worse than having an itch you can never scratch"
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
This is not about unprecedented greed and selfishness.Tell me again how this is not about unprecedented greed and selfishness
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/H-6/
http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/default-en.asp
http://www.chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/
Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Its nice knowing that my tax dollars are being spent to protect disadvantaged and discriminated groups such as:
- visible minorities
- people with physical and mental handicaps
- people of different faiths/ethnicities/sexual orientations
- airline captains who have been forced to stop working, and instead play golf all day while being paid over $130,000/year
Nice. Great links accumulous, very informative. I'm kind of curious, though, why don't you guys go get a hobby or a life or something? I recommend wakeboarding.Very fun. You know what wouldn't be much fun? Coming back after all this.
- visible minorities
- people with physical and mental handicaps
- people of different faiths/ethnicities/sexual orientations
- airline captains who have been forced to stop working, and instead play golf all day while being paid over $130,000/year
Nice. Great links accumulous, very informative. I'm kind of curious, though, why don't you guys go get a hobby or a life or something? I recommend wakeboarding.Very fun. You know what wouldn't be much fun? Coming back after all this.
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
1. Flying an EMB on flat pay.........not a lot of dollars
2. Working more time on the EMB cause the freedom fighters want to stay longer........costs me several thousand dollars, maybe my job.
3. Watching a greedy senior walk around an EMB instead of playing golf taking a stroke, literally
PRICELESS!!!!!!!!
To all who call this for what it is, congratulations.
For all others there's creditcard, used by more flat pay FO's to pay for food than any other card on the market.
2. Working more time on the EMB cause the freedom fighters want to stay longer........costs me several thousand dollars, maybe my job.
3. Watching a greedy senior walk around an EMB instead of playing golf taking a stroke, literally
PRICELESS!!!!!!!!
To all who call this for what it is, congratulations.
For all others there's creditcard, used by more flat pay FO's to pay for food than any other card on the market.
Last edited by the original tony on Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
What is wrong with these guys? They must have very unhappy lives at home, because I can't wait to retire. 28 years to go! Last thing I want to be doing when Im 65 is having a smelly CATSA guy make me open my belt or getting home 2 hrs late because my LGA/EWR combo got all $#%#% up.
DEI = Didn’t Earn It
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Great well-rounded post. Hate, Retribution and Watersports. And since when is Golf not a hobby.Its nice knowing that my tax dollars are being spent to protect disadvantaged and discriminated groups such as:
- visible minorities
- people with physical and mental handicaps
- people of different faiths/ethnicities/sexual orientations
- airline captains who have been forced to stop working, and instead play golf all day while being paid over $130,000/year
Nice. Great links accumulous, very informative. I'm kind of curious, though, why don't you guys go get a hobby or a life or something? I recommend wakeboarding.Very fun. You know what wouldn't be much fun? Coming back after all this.
Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Why not take the opportunity to retire at 60, work on your golf game and then join the Senior tour? Then it is much more than a hobby, it's a potential disrimination lawsuit because those haters wont let you play on the PGA tour, only the Senior tour.accumulous wrote:Great well-rounded post. Hate, Retribution and Watersports. And since when is Golf not a hobby.Its nice knowing that my tax dollars are being spent to protect disadvantaged and discriminated groups such as:
- visible minorities
- people with physical and mental handicaps
- people of different faiths/ethnicities/sexual orientations
- airline captains who have been forced to stop working, and instead play golf all day while being paid over $130,000/year
Nice. Great links accumulous, very informative. I'm kind of curious, though, why don't you guys go get a hobby or a life or something? I recommend wakeboarding.Very fun. You know what wouldn't be much fun? Coming back after all this.
Just sayin'
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
"The only tournament today that has an age limit is the British Open, which allows all former champions under the age of 65 (as of the scheduled date of the final round) to compete."
I think the above is correct - yet at any rate the chances are, any of the hundreds of senior AC pilots who will keep flying will not likely be allowed in any of the ACPA tournaments anywhere, anytime, at least if the current mood is any indicator, so you're right it wouldn't be surprising if they have to be slated to a different and separate group.
I think the above is correct - yet at any rate the chances are, any of the hundreds of senior AC pilots who will keep flying will not likely be allowed in any of the ACPA tournaments anywhere, anytime, at least if the current mood is any indicator, so you're right it wouldn't be surprising if they have to be slated to a different and separate group.
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Amen to that!beast wrote:Its nice knowing that my tax dollars are being spent to protect disadvantaged and discriminated groups such as:
- visible minorities
- people with physical and mental handicaps
- people of different faiths/ethnicities/sexual orientations
- airline captains who have been forced to stop working, and instead play golf all day while being paid over $130,000/year
Nice. Great links accumulous, very informative. I'm kind of curious, though, why don't you guys go get a hobby or a life or something? I recommend wakeboarding.Very fun. You know what wouldn't be much fun? Coming back after all this.
Also, am I the only one who has noticed that since the ACPA forum has been shut down, the usual suspects are now over here preaching there drivel? No wonder it was shut down. Sadly, this forum is now infected with the same virus and has become less interesting to visit. I for one, am getting pretty tired of listening to Ray Hall and friends tell me how I have discriminated against them, particularly when he negotiated for and voted on many collective agreements over the past years both as an executive of ACPA and as a member.
I think Ray Hall has all the makings of a superb politician and wish him well.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... =hypocracy
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
So many whiners on this forum!
Why not do like everyone else in aviation: bide your time, get your hours and get your seniority one step at a time? We all had it rough in the beginning and we've all weathered crises...furloughs, mergers, 9/11, sars and shutdowns.
This age 60 thing is just one more crisis. Its part of living in Canada... politics, human rights but also well defined labour law. We take the good with the bad. And, I feel there is a lot more good than bad.
You have other options: go offshore, get another career, get a second job, work on your golf game...get a life! Just stop whining about how rough it is being an AC pilot. Whether its age 60 going through or not, or bad negots or not, or whatever, the sine wave in this industry will continue.
P.S. I'm retiring early ie before 60.
Why not do like everyone else in aviation: bide your time, get your hours and get your seniority one step at a time? We all had it rough in the beginning and we've all weathered crises...furloughs, mergers, 9/11, sars and shutdowns.
This age 60 thing is just one more crisis. Its part of living in Canada... politics, human rights but also well defined labour law. We take the good with the bad. And, I feel there is a lot more good than bad.
You have other options: go offshore, get another career, get a second job, work on your golf game...get a life! Just stop whining about how rough it is being an AC pilot. Whether its age 60 going through or not, or bad negots or not, or whatever, the sine wave in this industry will continue.
P.S. I'm retiring early ie before 60.
Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
That implies that there is good times as well as bad times. Can you show me where in the past 12 years there have been improvements in WAWCON?the sine wave in this industry will continue.
More like a downward spiral than a sine wave.... especially for those with seniority lower than the membership median.
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Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
I am junior and my contract has been steadily decimated since I joined in 2000. I need to work a few extra years to get any kind of a respectable pension. Working past 60 is not a bad thing for many of us. It's nice to have a choice. Let's hope ACPA doesn't screw it for everyone.


Re: Judicial review of a CHRT decision
Nice graph Lost. I think that is the one that shows FA, Mx, Dx and the Jazz pilots WAWCON over the past 12 years. I found the graph that applies to the Mainline pilots WAWCON

