WG terminal, short AGAIN

[the_professor]

Where is the accountability within Nav Canada with regard to staffing and training? How in Christ's name can WG terminal be short for what I believe is the 8th year running? WHY have they not transferred controllers from better staffed specialities, like east high? WHY have they not addressed the training problems?

Who is being held responsible? NOBODY.

[jolt63]

When I went for my 2nd interview I actually asked this question during my tour of YVR's ACC. I asked one of the interviewers why YVR terminal was constantly short staffed, and why they can't simply train more people, or transfer people from other specialties. He told me that YVR terminal (and this is likely applicable to WG terminal as well) is probably the most difficult specialty at the ACC and they do try to cross train people for it, but the vast majority just can't handle it even among qualified IFR controllers. With specific respect to the YWG area, I also heard that the region has the lowest pass rate among controllers, and this is likely due to the significantly lower manpower pool they have to draw from compared to the other regions.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

WHY have they not transferred controllers from better staffed specialities, like east high? WHY have they not addressed the training problems?

Who is being held responsible? NOBODY.

The same reason why not every licenced pilot out there is flying the big tin. As a complexity increasees there are fewer and fewer people that can do the job. The staffing shortage started in the 80's when Transport Canada put in a hiring freeze. We have been playing catch-up ever since. A decision to freeze training again when NavCan took over hasne't helped things. Right now training is kind of like a credit card debt. Just able to make the interest payments (attrition) and never hitting the principle (shortage).

[NJ]

How about paying a little more for the sectors that are tougher to staff?

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

How about paying a little more for the sectors that are tougher to staff?

Want to join the bargaining team?

[Braun]

How about paying a little more for the sectors that are tougher to staff?

Amen!!!!

[RVR6000]

Edmonton center covering the arctic has been short-staffed for sometime also. How long is the training process to get someone up to par.

[wesmantooth]

With specific respect to the YWG area, I also heard that the region has the lowest pass rate among controllers, and this is likely due to the significantly lower manpower pool they have to draw from compared to the other regions.

I'm not sure about the pass rate, but the candidate pool is completely true...

Our seniority bid list recently came out... YWG ACC had a few people bid per sector I think, maybe even only 2 for terminal. In comparison YVR ACC had roughly 20-30 people bid per sector and aside from the terminals they don't even need anybody. I live in BC, I'm a small unit VFR controller. If I went to YWG ACC I could make significantly more money than I do now and could probably go tomorrow, but then I'd have to live in Winnipeg, and that ain't happening. I'll wait the 10 years for YVR while making less money. The pool is just significantly shallower for YWG ACC.

[the_professor]

Does anyone think this is Cindy Westphal's fault? Does this not fall under the domain of the operations manager?

[invertedattitude]

Every controller thinks they are the busiest and most complex, you'll never see a better pay for "more complex" who is going to decide that?

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

Every controller thinks they are the busiest and most complex, you'll never see a better pay for "more complex" who is going to decide that?

Actually it is already being done. Units are ranked and payed based on a complexity rating that is determined by both company and union.

The suggestion was to pay more for units that are difficult to staff. Workload and complexity are not the only determining factors for that. Some units are hard to staff due to cost/quality of living.

[Braun]

Every controller thinks they are the busiest and most complex, you'll never see a better pay for "more complex" who is going to decide that?

Some units are hard to staff due to cost/quality of living.

Also because of the people that may or may not work in said sub-unit...I know that's a big factor for me to not switch

[the_professor]

Does anyone think this is Cindy Westphal's fault? Does this not fall under the domain of the operations manager?

Cindy Westphal is the Ops manager for Winnipeg ACC, and thus has presided over the staffing situation there since 2003.

If you have comments about Winnipeg's staffing, she can be reached EDITED.

She really has a firm grasp on how to run the place, so she'll no doubt be receptive to your input.

[yippiekaiyea]

deleted

[yippiekaiyea]

I unconditionally apologize for the post that was in this space prior to me editing it. I wrote it after a "night out with the lads" and didn't even realize that I had done that till I went back on this site about a week later and saw it...to my abject horror! You fellas are correct when you stated that it was lacking in class: it was. For that I sincerely apologize.

My itention seems to have been to indicate that perhaps it's more than just staffing issues internally that is causing the shortage, and that perhaps it also has to do with the quality of the candidates applying to fill them outside of the company. It was lost in the idiocy of the post. Absolutey awful. Another reminder why it's never a good idea to imbibe and email. EEPS!

[ywgflyboy]

Hey Fellas: wake up...Winnipeg sucks. THAT is the reason why no one wants to work there! Think about it: If you have a family, why the heck would you want to live in a town where there is nothing to do? Nav Canada may have no choice but to pay a little better to entice existing ATC's to go and work there, but the reality is that the local lads/ladies don't have the ability to pass through the easiest area to get into. Bottom line is that there is a bare minimum in which to pass: If you can't do it, you don't deserve it. In Winnipeg, with the greatest needs, there aren't enough candidates who have what it takes to pass, and not enough incentive for those what HAVE passed to move their operations there. Bottom line: Winnipeg sucks: whether it's because of the weather, or because of a lack of familial support...regardless...no one wants to live and work there. And there is nothing in the NAV Canada union guidelines to force anyone to do so. So, with all due respect to those that have no clue EDITED. Leave Cindy alone because she's just doing her job. It's not her fault that most of you complaining are those that haven't made it, or pilots that haven't a clue. EDITED

First of all, Winnipeg is a city.

Secondly, get some class.

Thirdly, Winnipeg happens to have lots of appeal to a lot of families. Why do you think there was so much stink about the Air Canada base closing? Making 150K on an A320 is a whole lot better when you can actaully afford to buy a house compared to Torotno.

Last but not least, your post looks like you let your 8 year old have their way with the keyboard.

[invertedattitude]

I'm talking about IFR not VFR

[the_professor]

There's no reason to have edited Westphal's work number. It's in the pubic domain. (204) 983-8483. EDITED to add: You posted her Cell #, that is why they were removed

It's interesting how the Nav Can types are mute on this thread, because they're sure a bunch of tough guys when they're in the position at work & talking about her.

[Braun]

Maybe because public ranting anonimously is useless and if you have a problem with anyone you should directly speak to them instead of here....

Signed,

A Nav Can "type"

[the_professor]

Maybe because public ranting anonimously is useless and if you have a problem with anyone you should directly speak to them instead of here....

Signed,

A Nav Can "type"

Oh yeah, take it from Braun, the newbie who controls 3,000 feet in one quadrant.

EDITED

[the_professor]

There's no reason to have edited Westphal's work number. It's in the pubic domain. (204) 983-8483. EDITED to add: You posted her Cell #, that is why they were removed

It's interesting how the Nav Can types are mute on this thread, because they're sure a bunch of tough guys when they're in the position at work & talking about her.

Her cell is not a state secret either. If anyone wants it, PM me with your email address.

[parrot_head]

Mr Professor, contrary to your opinion, it's not as easy as transferring controllers from one specialty to another. First the controller has to bid into the specialty, (I havn't heard of Nav Can forcing a transfer in quite some time), then the controller has to go thru the required training and check out in the new specialty. There is a long list of controllers that have been unable to make the transition to a new specialty. Whether its a procedural to radar specialty or vice versa. And then there are people who do come from an enroute radar background that find out during the training that they aren't comfortable working in a terminal environment.

As for us "Nav Can types" staying mute on the subject, the staffing issue is raised almost on a daily basis, but we are not the ones that do the hiring. And when we do get a class of 4-6 new controllers for the specialty(ab-initio and licensed controllers), on average only one of them will actually make it thru the training. That average is consistanly the same whether you have a group of 6 ab-initios or 6 controllers from other specialties. With limited success, there have been many changes to the training over the years to try and increase the check out rate. But one the one thing that hasn't changed over the years is the high standards that have to be met in order to check out, even at the expense of adequate staffing, this is a good thing.

[Braun]

Maybe because public ranting anonimously is useless and if you have a problem with anyone you should directly speak to them instead of here....

Signed,

A Nav Can "type"

Oh yeah, take it from Braun, the newbie who controls 3,000 feet in one quadrant.

EDITED

Exactly! Which side is left again???

Thanks for another amazingly insightful post professor, always so fun to read!

[cyeg66]

Oh yeah, take it from Braun, the newbie who controls 3,000 feet in one quadrant.

Huh? What the heck does that have to do with anything? And are there really sectors responsible only for 3000' (vertical, horizontal, diagonal?), and subdivided into quadrants at that?!? Wow. Didn't realize... Also, I guess if one person has had an ATC licence longer than another person, then they're more of a NavCan type.

"Tough guys" when in position. I needed that.

[cyeg66]

We've got a course of 4 'experienced' controllers starting next month (I think...). I'll let you know of any attrition, if any, happens. AFAIK, our unit is pretty tolerant when it comes to training and giving guys every opportunity to check out, though some people may disagree with that. Maybe the_professor wants to give it a shot...? As for the short-staffed situation in YWG terminal, it's pervasive in certain units across the country. Why? I'm sure Westphal couldn't answer that so there's no reason to target said individual. It's like complaining about all FA's being old at ACA and blaming that on Rovinescu. The issue stood b4 she took over and it still will long after she's gone. Some units are perpetually short staffed and can still run the full operation (no restrictions) while others are prepared to deny certain services based on being short 1 body on a day or evening shift (supervisors who believe they're really hard done by?). Now that, I really can't figure out