IFR Question

[ChrisStrong]

So my question is simple. Can you depart a MF on an IFR clearance in VMC and not follow the obstacle depature procedure (I'm not talking about a SID) and just turn on course maintaining your own obstacle clearance visually? or does ATC expect you are going to follow the published depature procedure?

I told you it was a simple question!

[PunkStarStudios]

You're expected to follow the SID... remember the SID is not just obstacle clearance, it may have noise avoidance as well as headings to keep you clear of other airport approach paths... basically ensuring separation.

[kevenv]

You're expected to follow the SID...

He did say he wasn't talking about a SID.

The OP is correct, it is a simple question for ATC. If I issue you a clx to destination, maintain 100, depart rwy 22, climb on course, I don't care what you do vis-a-vis a turn on course maintaining visual obstruction clx. You're responsible for terrain clx not me. Now whether or not CARS allows you to do it may be another issue, I don't know.

[PunkStarStudios]

Aha.
Yup.
I misread.
I skipped the coffee this morning and perhaps it's showing somewhat.

All aircraft are responsible for terrain clearance. ATC is not responsible until you are on the airway (the airways have terrain clearance built into them of course).

There are some considerations.

Unless the airport has been assessed and a SID has been put into place - the standard departure procedures for all airports are :
- Be 35 feet off the ground by the end of the runway.
- Climb runway heading
- No turn below 400 AGL
- Maintain a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per NM (not FPM but feet per nautical mile)

If a departure can't fit into that criteria for an airport - there will be a SID and the SID will guarantee clearance if you conform to it.

[AuxBatOn]

PSS,

That procedure is to avoid obstacle on an IFR departure. The OP is talking about VMC, in which case you can turn to your clearance as soon as you are comfortable after take off. Done it many times. A SID (or the standard departure procedure) doesn't have anything to do with separation within the MF, since you should be the only IFR traffic in the zone(not to mention that VMC you are still responsible for look out). As far as noise abatement, follow what's in the CFS and you'll be fine. If VFR traffic operates out of the field, you can depart however the hell you want VMC.

[PunkStarStudios]

Aux, you may have 10,000 more hours than me, be a DPE, and CFI somewhere - you never know the credentials of the guy on the other side of the screen - but I think (respectfully) you got it wrong in a few areas or perhaps I've misunderstood you.

The OP said with an IFR clearance - so turning as soon as you're comfortable may be all good and well -but you still have to follow the 35 ft, climb runway heading, and no turns below 400agl, and maintain 200 fpnm, especially if you are in a MF (a tower can amend your clearance to whatever I suppose but even then I am not sure). Check the CapGen - I am pretty sure that it's in there and the rules are clear - that's the standard SID when the tower has not amended it, or if it's an MF.

And even if you were VFR - you still can't do a turn below pattern which is 1000ft.

Were you talking separation from other traffic or terrain? Not that it matters which... because it absolutely does keep separation "in mind". It's pretty standard to have departure procedures at satellite airports to keep you out of the airspace from someone else. Chicago Midway being a perfect example. I admit - it's a little different - you're not being separated from a particular aircraft - more like the approach or departure paths of multiple aircraft, but the goal is the same - separation.

If you're departing IFR in VMC, you can not depart anyway you see fit - you have to follow the SID. Again - where a SID is not assessed - the "default" SID in the CapGen presides. I think Waterloo runway 26 might be a good example (although I don't recall if there is a VFR noise off of 26). There is a noise procedure for IFR... but I don't think it's there for a VFR departure.

PSS,

That procedure is to avoid obstacle on an IFR departure. The OP is talking about VMC, in which case you can turn to your clearance as soon as you are comfortable after take off. Done it many times. A SID (or the standard departure procedure) doesn't have anything to do with separation within the MF, since you should be the only IFR traffic in the zone(not to mention that VMC you are still responsible for look out). As far as noise abatement, follow what's in the CFS and you'll be fine. If VFR traffic operates out of the field, you can depart however the hell you want VMC.

[AuxBatOn]

All right dude,

You're mixing up a few things here.  MF, Mandatory Frequency:

"mandatory frequency" - means a VHF frequency specified in the Canada Air Pilot or the Canada Flight Supplement for the use of radio-equipped aircraft operating within an MF area; (fréquence obligatoire)

MF Area:

"MF area" - means an area of specific dimensions that consists of the surface area and airspace in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome and

(a) to which a mandatory frequency has been assigned,

(b) in respect of which the reporting procedures specified in Division V of Subpart 2 of Part VI are applicable, and

(c) that is identified as an MF area in the Canada Air Pilot or the Canada Flight Supplement; (zone MF)

Key word here, UNCONTROLLED aerodrome (ie: no tower). Yet, you talk about tower ammending your clearance and give specific examples of controlled fields.

IFR traffic within an MF is managed procedurally by an IFR agency (center/terminal). There should be 1 IFR traffic at the time.

Let's say your clearance is:

AAA111, you are cleared to the XXXX airport via XXX direct ZZZ, flight planned route, climb and maintain FL280, clearance canceled if not airborne by 0000Z.

If you are VMC, you don't need to follow the Standard Departure Procedure. That is meant to protect you from obstacle.  If you see the obstacles, you can turn ASAP on course.

Can you reference the CAP GEN part? Because I can't find anything that specifically says you need to do the procedure VMC.  

Now if you are cleared for a SID, and it's part of your clearance, that's different.  

Also, find me where it says you cannot turn before being at the circuit altitude.

[PunkStarStudios]

Really?
I thought MF meant something complete different.... Not.


I use Jepp - but I did find a CapGen. Look at Operating Minima page 3.

Departure Procedures meet obstacle clearance requirements and are based on the premise that on departure an aircraft will:
a) cross at least 35 feet above the departure end of the runway;
b) climb on runway heading to 400 feet AAE before turning; and
c) maintain a climb gradient of at least 200 feet per NM throughout the climb to the minimum altitude for enroute operations.

I did make one error - I was reciting it from memory where I actually said 400 feet AGL versus 400 feet AAE in my previous posts.

Having said all that - I was dead wrong. I thought that departure procedure was cut in stone with an IFR clearance. Nope. I was wrong, you were right. That's only cut in stone when departing IMC.

Unless departing with a SID, if you are in VMC you can do whatever you want. The only caveat is you take on the burden of risk if you don't follow that procedure - especially if you are at an unfamiliar airport. Kamloops and Thunder Bay come to mind.... while if you stick to the procedure - obstacle clearance is "built in". It took 2 calls to a TC MIFR DPE (Ed Pasquale) for me to figure this one out.

All right dude,

You're mixing up a few things here.  MF, Mandatory Frequency:

"mandatory frequency" - means a VHF frequency specified in the Canada Air Pilot or the Canada Flight Supplement for the use of radio-equipped aircraft operating within an MF area; (fréquence obligatoire)

MF Area:

"MF area" - means an area of specific dimensions that consists of the surface area and airspace in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome and

(a) to which a mandatory frequency has been assigned,

(b) in respect of which the reporting procedures specified in Division V of Subpart 2 of Part VI are applicable, and

(c) that is identified as an MF area in the Canada Air Pilot or the Canada Flight Supplement; (zone MF)

Key word here, UNCONTROLLED aerodrome (ie: no tower). Yet, you talk about tower ammending your clearance and give specific examples of controlled fields.

IFR traffic within an MF is managed procedurally by an IFR agency (center/terminal). There should be 1 IFR traffic at the time.

Let's say your clearance is:

AAA111, you are cleared to the XXXX airport via XXX direct ZZZ, flight planned route, climb and maintain FL280, clearance canceled if not airborne by 0000Z.

If you are VMC, you don't need to follow the Standard Departure Procedure. That is meant to protect you from obstacle.  If you see the obstacles, you can turn ASAP on course.

Can you reference the CAP GEN part? Because I can't find anything that specifically says you need to do the procedure VMC.  

Now if you are cleared for a SID, and it's part of your clearance, that's different.  

Also, find me where it says you cannot turn before being at the circuit altitude.

[PunkStarStudios]

One more caveat.
I've never had an absence of some form of departure procedure coming out of MF so either my experience is very limited (entirely possible) or this whole topic is kinda moot.

For example - whenever I depart out of Sarnia (CYZR) they specify the runway and usually something like "once airborne turn direct London", or "once airborne turn to heading 080 and maintain 3,000 feet" or something like that. In that case you have to follow what they say.

But yeah - if they don't specific runway or heading on airborne and you are VMC, technically you can do whatever you want.

Does that happen much? It's never happened to me but perhaps this is far more common than I thought.

[Jonathan]

Very common to see "depart on course" or "depart runway xx turn left on course" in northern ON.

Now that we've implemented pre-taxi clearances, we always give a SID, but before, except when separation from other IFR traffic was required and a SID was used (yes a SID can be used for separation even if there is only one IFR in the zone at a time), it was almost always "maintain FL220, depart runway 04, turn left on course".

In VMC I assume the pilot can do whatever he wants, in IMC I didn't know there was a specific procedure ("default SID") to follow, interesting.

[SAR_YQQ]

35' over threshold, no turns before 400'AAE and 200'/nm only provides separation on assessed runways. Unless you have the magic 1/2 it won't work out for you. Some airports do not have the 1/2 and also lack a * indicating a spec-vis procedure. In this case a visual climb to MDA or a safe altitude is required.

[Bushav8er]

I guess it wasn't such a simple question.

I may be wrong, and not withstanding the Rocky Mountains, it seems that most aircraft can do better than below without really trying -

Departure Procedures meet obstacle clearance requirements and are based on the premise that on departure an aircraft will:
a) cross at least 35 feet above the departure end of the runway;
b) climb on runway heading to 400 feet AAE before turning; and
c) maintain a climb gradient of at least 200 feet per NM throughout the climb to the minimum altitude for enroute operations.

Unless given instructions to the contrary, departing uncontrolled in VMC, you can provide your own obstacle clearance, and traffic for that matter (in fact you're supposed too hence the MF), until you again contact Centre.

[SAR_YQQ]

I may be wrong, and not withstanding the Rocky Mountains, it seems that most aircraft can do better than below without really trying -

Yup most can. But can you do it single-engine? It's not a rule under the CARS, in the CF we have to plan for single-engine Ops all the way to destination. In this case, most of our twin engine aircraft cannot fly an assessed departure and must use a Spec Vis routing - or be VMC.

In Dauphin, the runway is not assessed and no Spec Vis departure exists. Without local area knowledge you would be forced to land off an instrument approach and not be able to take off again until the weather rose high enough to permit you to visually fly to some point on the instrument approach so that you can fly the published miss.

[AuxBatOn]

Or you can fly the reciprocal of an existing approach.

[square]

So my question is simple. Can you depart a MF on an IFR clearance in VMC and not follow the obstacle depature procedure (I'm not talking about a SID) and just turn on course maintaining your own obstacle clearance visually? or does ATC expect you are going to follow the published depature procedure?

I told you it was a simple question!

Yup.

[fish4life]

Or you can fly the reciprocal of an existing approach.

+1 thats the easiest way to assure obstacle clearance, or you could even get out the old VMC and determine if you can assure obstacle clearance that way.

[SAR_YQQ]

Or you can fly the reciprocal of an existing approach.

Yup - assuming that you can make it to a point on the approach visually. You can't just climb out and fly blindly about hoping you have obstacle clearance.

[AuxBatOn]

You can calculate the climb gradient from the departure end to the runway to MDA and maintain that up to MDA.

[SAR_YQQ]

You can calculate the climb gradient ...

...and then, you lose an engine. Where are you now? Nothing to shuttle climb on. No real clue where you are except somewhere between MDA and whatever obstructions are out there penetrating the OIS.

I guess in the end it really depends on what rules you are flying under and what you are doing. Flying state aircraft the rules are quite clear and I challenge my aspiring military aviators daily on making the smart decisions. Fly ad-hoc is never an option with tax-payer machines.

[AuxBatOn]

...and then, you lose an engine. Where are you now? Nothing to shuttle climb on. No real clue where you are except somewhere between MDA and whatever obstructions are out there penetrating the OIS.

The same can be said if you lose an engine on the climb on a departure with a specific climb gradient. If you can't make it on 1 engine, you don't go.

[SAR_YQQ]

If you can't make it on 1 engine, you don't go.

Yeh, that's a military only rule. Most of our twin engine fleet cannot meet an assessed departure gradient of 200'/nm single engine (during the summer or high airport elevation). It is always a challenge to get out - we usually have to rely on a Spec Vis departure or wait for cooler temperatures.

[fish4life]

civi side of things if its below 12 500 you don't have to meet single engine climb gradients either for obstacle clearance.

[Stan_Cooper]

Yeah I think there's something in the regulations that gives the PIC authority to determine "alternate procedures" if the published procedure is not acceptable for some reason.

Out here in the rocks for some reason we never get departure instructions of any type, the clearance is generally "cleared from uncontrolled mountain airport to vancouver via direct keinn whistler 2 arrival maintain FL230" blah blah blah.

Many of the airports have long complicated IFR departure procedures on the airport diagram, and in VMC we generally just climb visually on course.