YTZ Flying

[El Comat]

Is ACPA really going to help Calin create a race to the bottom and look for "cheaper" CPA partners for YTZ?? Does ACPA, or any ACPA members, really think that this will be good for the piloting profession in the long run?? And will 5 Q400s really make AC profitable? Does ACPA actually think that AC management will pass $0.01 on to the pilots for allowing this?? Next thing you know you'll be trading away bits and pieces of your remaining 75-seat flying in exchange for promises (which is all you have right now for the Q400s). Where does it stop? Something about giving an inch and taking a mile comes to mind....

Looking for comments from knowledgeable, intelligent AC folk like Brickhead, etc. I'm not trying to start a pissing match, I just legitimately want to see how this can be good for anyone in the industry, including AC and Jazz pilots. Keep it friendly, folks!

EC

PS - I see that ACPA has a grievance dealing with Jazz and Q400s, can anyone elaborate on that?

[Disco Stu]

"Cheaper" CPA partners and lower pilot wages do not necessarily go hand in hand.

[hypoxic]

I've spoken with a few ACPA folks and they all seem to favour having AC pilots fly the Q400's! Like you mentioned ACPA has filed a grievance regrading Q400's already, having someone else fly them opens a can of worms with with grievance already filed. Why would they allow one carrier to operate them and not another?

[tallun123]

MAybe ACPA has finally learned to keep door firmly shut? Maybe JAzz would like to trade short term 757 for long term Q400's?

[Localizer]

MAybe ACPA has finally learned to keep door firmly shut? Maybe JAzz would like to trade short term 757 for long term Q400's?

The 757 venture has nothing to do with Air Canada. It wasn't flying done by Air Canada and its not flying Air Canada (AC Vacations) was going to get after SSV shut down. So I don't understand why that flying keeps coming into question?

Jazz will be operating Q400's come May .. If they operate the island or not is the only question. The other question is will ACPA allow another operator to compete with Jazz and potentially create another race to the bottom.

Don't kid yourself .. there is no crystal ball, and this could prove costly to ACPA in the long run. Sometimes its better to have the devil you know, then the devil you don't ...

[rudder]

MAybe ACPA has finally learned to keep door firmly shut? Maybe JAzz would like to trade short term 757 for long term Q400's?

Sorry, I think that I just snorted my coffee out thru my nose The 757's have nothing to do with AC or ACPA or the CPA or the collective agreement, other than the fact that they will occasionally share the same airspace. Perhaps there will be a few bruised egos as it is likely that Jazz and AC pilots will be bumping into each other in the future at the 767 sim in YYZ . Few seem to mention that AC took $50M/year out of the Jazz CPA in the spring of 2009. What would the line be - "It's just business"?

At least 50% of ACPA hasn't learned anything. Witness the near equal divide on the Executive over the issue of adding yet another (cheaper) subcontractor to the fold. Which half is right and which is wrong remains to be seen. And now it would appear that the membership will weigh in after hearing the merits of arguments on both sides.

If anybody believes that 5 Q400's one way or the other are going to make a difference, then they are kidding themselves. AC's objective is to take a bite out of Porter. Apparently, they have decided that vehicle will be thru managing yet another contract carrier agreement. Somehow people are interpreting this as an opportunity to take a bite out of Jazz. Hopefully for AC it will work out better than the AT/CanJet arrangement. At least with Jazz if one Q400 was broken, others will be available. Not so when the total operating fleet is just 5 (and maxed out with no backup plan. Or perhaps Jazz is the backup plan )

[Brick Head]

MAybe ACPA has finally learned to keep door firmly shut? Maybe JAzz would like to trade short term 757 for long term Q400's?

Sorry, I think that I just snorted my coffee out thru my nose The 757's have nothing to do with AC or ACPA or the CPA or the collective agreement, other than the fact that they will occasionally share the same airspace.[/i]

People it's not our work. Jazz can do what it likes as long as it is outside of the CPA with AC. However I must agree the 757 sentiment, well the whole Jazz/ACPA history, is being used by AC to motivate ACPA membership in a specific direction. An MBA would call it seizing opportunity. I call it allowing ourselves to be manipulated. But whatever you want to call it? It's a factor

At least 50% of ACPA hasn't learned anything. Witness the near equal divide on the Executive over the issue of adding yet another (cheaper) subcontractor to the fold. Which half is right and which is wrong remains to be seen. And now it would appear that the membership will weigh in after hearing the merits of arguments on both sides.

That pretty much sums up where we sit doesn't it. But I don't like the 50% of ACPA hasn't learned anything. Only a handful of people were aware what was going on at the time due to confidentiality issues. As a matter of fact I suspect, based on comments you made on another thread, that you were aware before I was. Another point I would like to make is if this decision had been made under the ALPA constitution it would already be a done deal. Under the ACPA constitution this must go to the membership for direction. Attempting to circumvent that proved to be a non starter.

If anybody believes that 5 Q400's one way or the other are going to make a difference, then they are kidding themselves. AC's objective is to take a bite out of Porter

Don't kid yourself. This is very serious. It starts the process of diversification of regional feed in an effort to create competitive tendering when the time comes. It will take time to get a second player in a position to compete with the size and scope of Jazz. This is just the start. It is a tipping point. My personal opinion is that letting this slip by, without using our ability to influence what happens next, for our own good, and that of the profession, is a mistake that ignores our own history here in Canada, and that which has transpired south of the boarder. If we just turn a blind eye to what we will set in motion, ACPA will be indelibly inked with the consequences.

We need a plan that safe guards pilot wages and working conditions while allowing AC to seek out the cost cutting measures it needs to be viable.

No viability? = No airline = No jobs = No pensions, for any of us on the red side.

[rudder]

Don't kid yourself. This is very serious. It starts the process of diversification of regional feed in an effort to create competitive tendering when the time comes. It will take time to get a second player in a position to compete with the size and scope of Jazz. This is just the start. It is a tipping point. My personal opinion is that letting this slip by, without using our ability to influence what happens next, for our own good, and that of the profession, is a mistake that ignores our own history here in Canada, and that which has transpired south of the boarder. If we just turn a blind eye to what we will set in motion, ACPA will be indelibly inked with the consequences.

We need a plan that safe guards pilot wages and working conditions while allowing AC to seek out the cost cutting measures it needs to be viable.

No viability? = No airline = No jobs = No pensions, for any of us on the red side.

From the professional unionised pilot perspective the answer is obvious - The ACPA MEC and the Jazz MEC should be communicating so as to avoid both being 'played' as was the case during CCAA.

However, the obvious answer is not typically how things are done here on the 'red side'.

[tallun123]

The connectors started as D-8/146 "FEED" for the main line. In 15 years it has morphed into a parallel airline with the 175s/705 competeing for routes and RJ s that were flown by the mainline now at JAZZ.

I agree that 757 s have little to do with the CPA agreement, however it s work that could have been flown under the "JETZ" brand operated by AC or flow by the many pilots being reduced off the 767 at AC.

What advantage is there to ACPA pilots to create another tier? I believe ACPA pilots could fly the Q400 s. No need for a let.

Cheers

[truedude]

The connectors started as D-8/146 "FEED" for the main line. In 15 years it has morphed into a parallel airline with the 175s/705 competeing for routes and RJ s that were flown by the mainline now at JAZZ.

I agree that 757 s have little to do with the CPA agreement, however it s work that could have been flown under the "JETZ" brand operated by AC or flow by the many pilots being reduced off the 767 at AC.

What advantage is there to ACPA pilots to create another tier? I believe ACPA pilots could fly the Q400 s. No need for a let.

Cheers

Well here ends the civil discourse!

Are you on F&%$ING glue.
Are you somehow under the impression that any flying that comes available should go to Air Canada first--just because. It's my understanding that AC management didn't even put a bid in for the TC flying, so perhaps you should take that up with your boss.

As for the regional career morphing: welcome to the real world. Things change, either go with it and evolve, or die. No one ever thought that some hippy airline from the west with 3 737-200's would "morph into a major player in the domestic market, but again, here we are. It is what it is.

As for mainline guys flying the Q400's. That might be the stupidest statement I ever seen on Avcanada. Get real!

[Brick Head]

Is ACPA really going to help Calin create a race to the bottom and look for "cheaper" CPA partners for YTZ?? Does ACPA, or any ACPA members, really think that this will be good for the piloting profession in the long run?? And will 5 Q400s really make AC profitable? Does ACPA actually think that AC management will pass $0.01 on to the pilots for allowing this?? Next thing you know you'll be trading away bits and pieces of your remaining 75-seat flying in exchange for promises (which is all you have right now for the Q400s). Where does it stop? Something about giving an inch and taking a mile comes to mind....

Looking for comments from knowledgeable, intelligent AC folk like Brickhead, etc. I'm not trying to start a pissing match, I just legitimately want to see how this can be good for anyone in the industry, including AC and Jazz pilots. Keep it friendly, folks!

EC

PS - I see that ACPA has a grievance dealing with Jazz and Q400s, can anyone elaborate on that?

El combat,

I'll start with the last question because it is the easiest. Before the small jets arbitration agreement. I'm not talking here about the the actual arbitration but the arbitration agreement. ACPA scope was 50 seats for jets, and 80 seats for props. The small jet arbitration agreement changed that to 76 seats with no mention of jets or props. The argument is the Q400's max seating capacity is 80 seats so it is ACPA's. The company will say the intent was jets only to 76 seats. The letter itself states Teplitsky decides all disagreements over the letter. Need I say more? I think ACPA's latest actions speak for themselves on the likelihood of success.

As for the rest? The proposed agreement does have a promise. We have a contract by Feb 2011 or the whole deal is off. AC gets a head start on the YTF operation in return we get a finish line in the sand for a completed contract. If they don't meet the deadline the flying will revert to present CA language.

As for the rest I don't think it is good for the profession. However there are good points being made on the other side of this issue as well which can not be ignored.

For instance.

If it will ignite a race to the bottom explain Air Georgians wages? Their Capt make a pretty good wage for a 1900. There company had to compete via tendering. They didn't need leverage within the ACPA TA to achieve their wages and working conditions. Why?

Which brings me to point 2. How much leverage does the Jazz exclusivity within the ACPA TA actually provide Jazz stakeholders? If the answer is very little then of course that brings out, whats the problem then. If the answer is, it makes a big difference, then what you are actually saying is that Jazz has achieved its wages and working conditions by leveraging ACPA's CA. By this I don't means just the pilots either. But rather Jazz unions have achieved what they have, on the backs of ACPA negotiating capital.

Point 2 is a good one in my opinion. Which is it? The exclusivity represents peanuts to Jazz stakeholders? Jazz provides a great product at reasonable rates? In which case Jazz should have no concerns with tendering. Or have Jazz stakeholders capitalized through the leveraging of ACPA's TA? Resulting in excesses flowing to Jazz stakeholders.

Point 3. I was reminded we haven't had a raise in ten years. More accurately after inflation we are down on average, more than 30% from 2000. EMJ FO's approaching 50% as a direct result of the Jazz MEC's actions during during CCAA.

Point 4. AC becomes viable, or we all loose everything. That would include Jazz.

Point 5. AC has already stated they want it, and will target it during negots. What do you think will happen if/when an arbitrator is involved? Are we expected to spend bargaining capital on it?

[dream_big]

ACPA scope was 50 seats for jets, and 80 seats for props. The small jet arbitration agreement changed that to 76 seats with no mention of jets or props. The argument is the Q400's max seating capacity is 80 seats so it is ACPA's.

I'm confused here? You're saying the original deal was jazz gets props up to 80 seats? (If so then how does a 74 seater Q 400 belong to you), or are you referring to your agreement (aka AC pilots fly anything above 50 seats essentially). If thats the case are we to go back to flying twin otters?

I find all the points you mentioned are very shorted sight and very short term thinking and of course everything in just best interest of ACPA. Just doesn't seem like you realize the ramifications this will cause on the industry and everything jazz has been working for in regards to up lifting the industry

[mattedfred]

i'm confused

some complain about a whipsaw but then turn around and facilitate the creation of a second whipsaw

and since when do JALP aircraft "compete" on routes against AC aircraft? AC decides which aircraft will operate every flight

Brickhead,

Do you recall when Air Nova operated the B1900? What would a B1900 Captain be making today if they had remained at JALP? I can tell you that it is more than GGN pays.

Do you think that there will be more or less downward pressure on the EMJ FO wage at AC if ACPA allowed a second Tier 2 airline?

How can we go from Global Solutions talks to facilitating the creation of a second Tier 2 airline in such a short time?

[truedude]

How can we go from Global Solutions talks to facilitating the creation of a second Tier 2 airline in such a short time?

Greed, bitter feelings from both sides, hostility from both sides, inability to drop the passed, inability to look forward and not repeat the past. Take your pick.

Both parties need an attitude adjustment, or maybe just meet by the bike racks at three and finally have it out. Then once everyone has simmered again, they can go get smashed together and maybe finally get something done that is in the best interests of BOTH parties, and this SH%# ass industry! Because this is just getting stupid.

I think brick mentioned that they wages are down 30% when compared to 2000. So is that going to be your starting point when you sit down with the higher ups--a 30% wage hike. Because if it is, i think i can say with some certainty that you won't be done by Feb.

And I keep hearing that Jazz is so expensive, and that we need to find a cheaper feeder. Lets not forget who set JAZZ up with the intention of spinning it off. They are the two people in charge now: MILTON at ACE and his buddy at AC. There the ones who setup the CPA with the idea of just shoveling all the money out the door. And now they can say, hey look, these guys are just too expensive, if we want to compete, we need to diversify.

My hope is that the next generation of ALPA and ACPA leadership will be made up of guys who weren't around when the pissing match began. And they can sit down with one another and talk over beers, instead of shouting at each other from across a table.

[teacher]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Although one last thing though, if ACPA is using this to further their contract negotiations with mainline than who is using who's lively hood to get ahead, again. As seen by the Jazz negotiations it'll be a VERY tough road for you too. Jazz is profitable and we had to make some compromises. Don't get played again.

[hypoxic]

"Cheaper" CPA partners and lower pilot wages do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Disco I think you might be on to something. First of all I have no problem with the salaries Jazz guys get. They are paid well and do a great job! Looking at CASM of US regionals of about $0.14 compared with Jazz's of $0.25 I can't help think why there is such a huge difference in cost! I know pilots salaries are quite different but that may only account for 1-2 cents! Why is Jazz so much more expensive than other regionals?

[truedude]

It's simply the way the CPA was structured to attract potential investors when they were originally setting it up JAZZ to spin it off. This meant the promise of high dividend checks. So most of the money is just flushed out the door. And lets not forget the people who set it up that way, because they are still in charge of the show today. They wrote the play, hired the actors, and we are all playing are parts exactly how they want us too. And while we are busy sniping each other over piddly sh%&, they are laughing their ass's off as they rake in their millions.

And the bar gets set lower once again!

[Brick Head]

So most of the money is just flushed out the door.

25,000,000 jazz units.

$0.60 annual distribution per unit.

$15,000,000 total distribution.

Amounts to a fraction of a penny per ASM.

It doesn't explain it. Comparing CASM to those airlines across the boarder is like comparing apples and oranges. Taxes fees ect.

The only way to compare would be against a Canadian company doing similar work which we don't have data for.

However if we were privy to the recent tendering process we would have a much better idea.

[mbav8r]

Where do you get 25,000,000 shares, it's 122 mil. at .60 = 73,200,000.00 bit of a different picture than you paint
http://www.stockhouse.com/tools/?page=% ... ble%3DLIST
Last Traded:
9/21/10 13:58 EST Transaction Volume
100

Open
4.38 Prev. Close
4.36

Bid
4.38 Ask
4.39

Bid Size 2,300 Ask Size 6,100

Market Cap (Mil) 534.33 Shares Out (mil)121.99

Signal
StockScore
36 Sentiment
StockScore
43

[Brick Head]

Where do you get 25,000,000 shares, it's 122 mil. at .60 = 73,200,000.00 bit of a different picture than you paint

Thanks for the correction. I got it out of a news article. I should have verified.

$73 million spread over 5 billion asm's equals 0.014c/asm

[Brick Head]

I'm confused here? You're saying the original deal was jazz gets props up to 80 seats? (If so then how does a 74 seater Q 400 belong to you), or are you referring to your agreement (aka AC pilots fly anything above 50 seats essentially). If thats the case are we to go back to flying twin otters?

The scope language is based on max seating capacity of a type. The Q400's max seating capacity is over 76 seats.

I find all the points you mentioned are very shorted sight and very short term thinking and of course everything in just best interest of ACPA. Just doesn't seem like you realize the ramifications this will cause on the industry and everything jazz has been working for in regards to up lifting the industry

Actually I do get it. It is actually a big concern to myself and many. But what you just said is highlighting the problem. You believe the leverage provided Jazz, through exclusivity in the ACPA CA, is significantly increasing your wages and working conditions. That means the leverage is also significantly increasing the amount of money flowing to all Jazz stakeholders. FA's, agents, AME's, shareholders. As long as exclusivity continues it will only escalate.

Who are we in the business of protecting?

[mattedfred]

does anyone else know of an income trust that pays the same or higher distribution as JAZ.UN?

does anyone know the annual cost of the ALPA CBA at JALP?

does anyone know what percentage of total cost the JALP CPA is to AC?

if AC thought that the JALP CPA was so expensive than why has JAZ.UN been able to maintain their distribution at the same level since the IPO?

if AC thought that the JALP CPA was so expensive than why were they only able to trim $50 mil from the CPA last year?

i think ACPA needs to get the facts and figure out how and why they are being played by their own Senior Executives at AC

perhaps there is a better way for ACPA to influence the cost of the JALP CPA rather than take CR's bait by allowing a second Tier 2 CPA?

[Brick Head]

if AC thought that the JALP CPA was so expensive than why were they only able to trim $50 mil from the CPA last year?

How can Jazz be pulled to the table and compelled to play ball when they don't have too? They have exclusive rights to the flying cemented in the ACPA CA. As a result they have no competition. Jazz was compelled to give just enough to protect their CPA interest with AC from insolvency. That is it.

Exclusivity leaves Jazz in the drivers seat in their relationship with AC.

Our two bosses haven't been exactly seeing eye to eye. Our boss wants us to give him the ability to drive Randal to the table.

[dream_big]

The scope language is based on max seating capacity of a type. The Q400's max seating capacity is over 76 seats.

Haha. So let me get this straight. We've had many AC pilots comment/insult/disrespect jazz pilots just for the type of aircraft they fly, and NOW all of a sudden AC pilots are good enough to be flying them? Hahahaha irony at it's best I must say. What a joke. Leave the regional stuff to the regional carrier boys, and at the same time jazz should leave AC's flying to AC. Doesn't matter if it holds more then 74 seats, the config will be 74 seats and it will be regional flying. Would ACPA like to suggest another type of plane we are allowed to fly that won't cause disputes/jealousy? Or should jazz just fly a Dash 8-100 till they give out and then just shutdown the airline???

[Brick Head]

Every union goes after contractual breaches. Many times the intent is not necessarily to enforce, but rather extract the bargaining capital that was used to attain it.

I think it is pretty clear ACPA does not expect to fly the Q400, based on the willingness to open up Jazz's exclusivity for Q400. Yes some members would like to see it. But realistically ACPA is attempting to extract bargaining capital.

As they should.