YXL FSS rant

[Doc]

Is it just me? It seems that YXL FSS is at it again. Traffic advisories we just dont need? We're 25 miles east, call in and get info on aircraft on final, aircraft 2, 5 and 10 miles out...and inbound....they'll all be enjoying coffee before we land. So why tie up the freq with this crap? I know, I've been here before...but cant something be done? And what's with this "overhead" crap? EVERYWHERE else, we join on base, or final, or whatever works out best...but in YXL, everybody must meet overhead to join downwind....and with the constant babble brought to us by the FSS guy telling inbounds and outbounds about traffic that wont conflict...someday soon, I fear, we will actually MEET overhead? Hope not.
When I'm 25 miles out, I dont need to know who's down and clearing. Do you?
End of Rant.

[flyinhigh]

tell me about it, I find that they try to act to much like ATC.
you must come over head, piss off. fine i'll do a 5 mile final than.

[ahramin]

Uh, why is the FSS telling you how to join the circuit? You tell them, not the other way around.

Why would anyone listen to FSS instructions?

[shitdisturber]

Uh, why is the FSS telling you how to join the circuit? You tell them, not the other way around.

I could be wrong, but it could be someone subtly warning you that TC is on the warpath about proper circuit techniques again. If he has some yahoo from TC standing behind him and you don't join according to the rules; if he doesn't violate you, you're both up shit creek. Then again it could just be someone pretending to be YYZ tower, one never knows.

[C-FOXY]

Too many newbies in the FSS at YXL all the time!!!

[alpha speed]

Some things never change.
I have not been to YXL in over 7 years and at that time they were real bad.
I don't know if it has always been that way BUT it has since the mid-air collision, which was in 97 I think?

[Canus Chinookus]

FSS is only doing what they're trained to do. Don't be blaming them for covering their own asses when it's their jobs on the line if they don't follow protocol.

Having said that, I've operated in YXL, YRL, YTH, and YRT among others, and it's the same thing wherever I have gone. These procedures are far too outdated for today's higher performance aircraft and traffic density. But as usual, it'll take a midair before there'll be a change... just make sure it isn't you!

[Canoehead]

If no conflict exists, can't ya join anywhere you want at an MF field? Who decides if there's a conflict? That should be you...

FSS is only doing what they're trained to do. Don't be blaming them for covering their own asses when it's their jobs on the line if they don't follow protocol.

You can play that game too. Contact.

[grimey]

Too many newbies in the FSS at YXL all the time!!!

I'm not saying that it excuses most or all of the problems, but the reason there are trainees in YXL (and other busy FSS sites) all the time is that those are the best places to train new specialists. I know several specialists we were initially posted to slow sites, and they're paranoid about ever getting transferred somewhere else. They feel they haven't really learned much since they left Cornwall, that some of their skills may have gotten worse, since they're never really put to use, and because of that would have trouble checking out in a busier area.

If no conflict exists, can't ya join anywhere you want at an MF field? Who decides if there's a conflict? That should be you...

We got a memo at work (YTH FSS) a week ago saying as much, but I can't remember if it was site specific or not. I'm not an official source, of course, so look it up rather than get violated though.

[Doc]

All we are saying is give us traffic that could be a conflict. Then shut the FU&K up! We are FAR more capable of sorting out what is a conflict and what isn't than any FSS "specialist". The part I love best is when FSS gives a conflict....then continues to babble while the two conflicting aircraft are headed right at each other at about FOUR HUNDRED KNOTS!! But FSS JUST dosen't understand....do they?
And this happens ALL THE TIME!!!! We ARE going to have another mid-air at YXL....it's just a matter of who, and when. And it will be caused by FSS, because we are not allowed to communicate with our conflicts.

[split s]

I think they do a great job, yeah sure they sometimes give more traffic than needed, but it's their job to give it. Sure would like to get more than needed than to not get all of the traffic. As for going overhead,it is mostly traffic inbound from the west that does this(righthand circuits 34), and other traffic is just covering there ass(tapes) and do not really do much of an overhead. They leave everyone alone for the most part and I think they should be left alone.

[grimey]

All we are saying is give us traffic that could be a conflict. Then shut the FU&K up!

We're not allowed to. We have to be certain that the pilots have resolved the conflict, we have to monitor the frequency, request position reports from the conflicting A/C if we can't obtain their position in some other way (visually, radar, etc). It's drilled into us from day one that the specialist has to control the frequencies, and not just sit back and leave it up to the pilots to solve the conflicts. If we arn't proactive, and something happens, we get raked over the coals.

That said, your examples definately arn't how the AAS should be done. Traffic should be kept to what is pertinent, not every plane in the sky. If A/C are in conflict, the specialist has to concentrate on making sure the pilots know where the conflicting traffic is and what they're doing, but that involves quick 2 way communication, not hogging the MF as the planes barrel into each other.

And hey, for anyone flying into YTH, if I (or another specialist) does something you don't like, for christ sake come in and tell us. We might be able to change how we do things while still obeying our regs. If we don't know you're not happy with something, we can't try to change it. So long as you're trying to be constructive, I don't mind the criticism or suggestions. We're supposed to provide you guys with a service, and I hope like hell the one I'm providing isn't more of a hinderance than a benefit.

[wrc]

YXL used to be great to deal with in the early 80s.
They were in a little white wood shed sort of thing.
Doug, the 2 Als, Tom and the guys did a fine and informal job of keeping Bearskin and Austin planes from banging into each other.
It was common to hear things like, "Karl is by hole in the wall for 16 and Kevin is landing at the float base".
Guess its a big time station now.

[flyinhigh]

nono, hole in the wall, pelican falls,abram and all are still used.
It is more a less them telling you that you HAVE to go over head the field to land 34-16 if you are coming from anywhere in a westerly direction.
I do agree with Doc as well, if 2 aircraft our conflicting and heading for each other, they'll figure it out real quick, as the fss don't sit there and say did you copy that, roger, GXXX did you copy, let us talk a straighten it out and when were done,we'll tell you.
when fss tries to relay what was already said by a aircraft on the same freq. it becomes very annoying and is not neccesary.

[Canus Chinookus]

I have another point... i hear so many greenhorns 'checking' onto a frequency as soon as they switch over.

The guy with airmanship(aka experience) switches freq, LISTENS for a couple minutes to get the traffic, THEN on his/her initial call to the FSS will tell them they 'copy' the traffic and their intentions are _____, and will join final as #___, etc.

99 times out of 100, FSS will say.... "Check"

[bigfssguy]

Same as pilots have CAR's regulations to follow we as FSS has Manops rules to follow. Our future employment depends on it as yours does on following CAR's. As for the arguement "give us the traffic and let us figure it out" Sorry we can't do it and you will get that at every FSS across the country if we don't hear positions or "we have the traffic" or "there not a problem" we are going to continue what we have been taught to do and have been mandated to do.

That being said there is always 126.7 if you want to talk on there and figure it out but tell us your doing that and i bet that the FSS will come back and saqy something to the effect " roger when it isn't a conflict anymore let me know". Now personally i will query the pilot if i don't hear them for a while but this can greatly reduce frequency congestion. Also don't talk amongst yourselfs on the MF this really adds to frequency suggestion and all transmissions on an MF have to be dirtected at the ground station be it VFR or FSS.

On the subject of too much traffic that is a big big no no. You should only be passing traffic that is pertinent to the aircraft. such as any inbound outbound traffic within 20 degrees of each other, parelleling, or arrivals within roughly 3 minutes. That is the basic ones anyways and no FSS should pass everything on his board but like everything including pilots you have good FSS and not so good ones too.

Now on the FSS telling people what to do that never ever happens. We would be fired in an instant if we tried that. We have it drummed into us from day one that we are not allowed to tell a/c what to do. All we can do is request thats it. And of course you don't have to follow the requests if you don't want to we can request you to fly upside down but it ain't gonna happen. If you ever have an FSS tell you what to do report him immediately. Also if there are any issues you have with an FSS or the way we do things NavCanada always welcomes input or complaints. And if you leave contact information which is optional they will contact you and advise you of any actions that have been taken. Also all site managers at the FSS's will be more than happy to sit down and talk to you. A lot of the pilots in YTH used to stop in and talk to our manager about any issues they had.

As for curcuits look up cars 602.96 then look in the CFS and they have published curcuits there. If you don't follow the rules we will wite you up and you can discuss circuit procedures with your friendly neighbourhood enforcement officers. But really we hate writing people up we know yoiu are struggling along just as much as anybody and we certainly don't want to see you fined but if you break the rules we have to write it up. I'm sorry but if it comes down to you being fined or worse and me losing my job i gotta take my job. Pilots know the rules they are beat into you from an early age why risk breaking them it really isn't worth it.

NavCanada Customer Service
1 (800) 876-4693-4
service@navcanada.ca

[snaproll20]

The "join overhead, turn downwind etc etc." rule is the most dangerous one in the book.
Simply put, if everyone has a radio and uses it properly, separation is effectively done. If I am playing "ring around the rosies" with a NORDO who I don't know is there, this procedure eventually funnels us both down a narrow path on final.
No thanks!
FSS folk are generally pretty good, but there is the odd one who seems to be a frustrated controller.
I remember telling one to "shut up" at YTS years ago because we were on a collison course with another plane and he would not let us talk.
Seems to me common sense should prevail. I have had too many near misses, mainly due to bad radio contacts.
Flying ever-decreasing circles onto final, lengthening the time available for conflict, wrong frequencies due to radio failure or pilot error?
No thanks, I like the radio calls and shortest route to the threshold.
When its my ass, they can stuff their stupid, dangerous rule.

[bigfssguy]

Snaproll i agree with you there are times when it is a silly antiquated rule made by controllers so they wouldn't have to turn there head. I am of the mind the faster they are on the ground the safer they are. i just re-read the memo we received from from NavCan HO. It says that circuit procedures seem to refer to A/C the intend to remain in the curcuit. It says that IFR A/C on a landing clearance doesn't have to coform to the left hand curcuit. And they go onto say that since IFR and VFR A/C are both governed by CAR's that VFR aircraft arriving or departing and aerodrome should have the same ability as an IFR A/C to do join the curcuit in the safest possible way or "avoid" as per CAR's 602.96 (3) (b). So what i'm reading is that if you are an intinerent A/C that is arriving or departing and have no intention of staying in the circuit you may join how you see fit. Of course there is still the "conforming to the curcuit" rule that pilots must abide by but that seems to clear it up for me. Though i have NEVER EVER written a pilot up for doing an improper curcuit and we know pilots in YTH never do this, this seems to justify my actions as long as the pilot is conforming to the established curcuit and is avoiding collision with another A/C. So there we have it, it also says in the memo that the will be expanding on curcuits in the next AIP RAC and there will be articles about this in the next TC aviation safety letter.

[bigfssguy]

A word of caution before you go thumbing your nose at TC screaming "you can't get me" as your doing right hand circuits. Wait for the clarification in the AIP or talk to TC to make sure, what i said is what i gleaned from the memo and is what i will follow til i get either confirmation or in trouble.

[Hickory Stick]

Its not the Walstens, Nac, Bearskin, Wasaya, Voyageur, Thunder, Lockheart planes you have to worry about. Float season is just around the corner. Just like Black Flies, be careful not to get swatted this spring and summer boys and girls.
Its always exciting when landing on 16 on a 5 mile final with SOME of the float drivers flying right at you. Some have Transponders but don't ever use them. Can think of one specific C208 amphib and its usual pilot who never uses his transponder. Have had many close calls with him for some reason. I have TECAS so use your transponder.
Anyway, Doom and Gloom (AL), Collin are experienced. The newer guys will get better. DOC don't sweat it your, QNJ and the other A/C has a halo around it when you fly, so we can see you departing Kenora. LOL.

Cheers

[KIAS]

Canus Chinookus,

I don't know where you're flying out of, but calling up YXL FSS and telling them you already have the numbers and traffic won't save time, actually it might even make the frequency more congested. Everytime I've heard guys use that trick in YXL, they had the FSS specialist give them all the numbers and traffic once again, even though the pilot mentionned on the initial contact that he already had all these info. My guess is that they probably are required to give those numbers and traffic to the pilot, no matter what the pilot says on initial contact. This trick seems to work at other places though, like the MFs handled by Winnipeg Radio. (YHD, YPL and YRL)

It's also true that people should be listening for a few minutes before checking in on the frequency, gives you a much better idea of what's going on...

[bigfssguy]

KIAS, if you say to an FSS thatyou have the "traffic and numbers" we are not required to give you the advisory. Unless we feel there is a peice of traffic or some other detail you may not have like a plane inbound who you haven't talked to in 10 minutes. Then we can give that to you to make sure your aware. Some FSS will still give the whole advisorythis can be attributed to either local procedure or comfort level. Personally i think it is the greatest statement ever when your busy it frees up the frequencies and make my life easier. Keep in mind though if you say this and an FSS doesn't take the initiative and confirm a certain peice of traffic and you have a near miss or collision you are on the hook for the blame. This has happened to me in YTH where someone i won't say who called up said the had traffic and numbers, me being the cautious one asked if he was aware of the A/C going nose to nose with him climbing through his altitude. he wasn't aware of him and that averted a potentialy dangerous situation. So don't be insulted if an FSS askes about a certain peice of traffic he is just making sure and that makes us all safer cause lord only knows we all make mistakes.

[stevewilson]

The most anal FSS has to go to the Winnipeg RCO in Dryden; one day we were going in there VFR on a training flight on a bright, sunny and very quiet Sunday morning; Bearskin was coming straight in from T'Bay and asked us directly on the MF what our intentions were (we had both already checked in with FSS); we responded back to him that we were going to do a hold so come on in--we were both promptly reprimanded by the tight ass FSS dude who went so far as to quote the CARS reference for MF procedures, which basically was "thou shalt always talk to the MF operator, never directly to other traffic". Bearskin asked him to clarify, and he repeated again....it was pretty funny later when they were leaving and asked FSS to ask where we were, then when he found out told him to tell us we were backtracking, then told him to thank us, etc. We had some fun with it and told the FSS guy to wish Bearskin a good day, etc......silence on the radio was the only response, although I swear I heard laughter somewhere!

Lighten up, man!

[Icebound]

The "join overhead, turn downwind etc etc." rule is the most dangerous one in the book. ....

Okay, so I am a newly soloed student, and I find this statement very curious.

Intuitively, it would seem that one point of convergence makes it easier to know where to look for traffic.... at circuit height, they are either at mid field or they are heading there.... so I would think it is the least dangerous from the point of view of spotting the traffic.... he is looking for me there, also, so if I can't see him, there is a good chance that he can see me....

So tell me why that is not so.


...

[Doc]

Hey Hickory Stick....that ain't no halo man, it's fumes...like the fumes that follow Peppi LePew....that and the sun glinting off my slightly less than full head of hair!