Markham Airport . . . Buttonvilles replacement???

[bizjets101]

It seems clear to me that Markham is in line to succeed Buttonville Airport.

Markham's owners are listed on Forbes as the 20 wealthiest in the world - so they have deep pockets.

The airport was charged by the Town of Markham for filling in the land in anticipation of future development without a permit - that charge is expected to conclude in a negotiated agreement on Jan 14/2011 in Richmond Hill.

Pickering is just way too hot of political grenade for anyone to do anything with, which leaves the only choice being Markham.

The owners are also well known for developing raw land into housing tracks, one of their larger projects is when they incorporated and built the modern town of Meadowvale, West of Toronto in 1974.

So, does anyone have any insight on the future plans for Markham. Is this just going to be a temporary quick fix - add a runway - expand a little, then one day in the near future just shut the place down and build houses!!!!

Or - is there going to be a real commitment to build an airport to rival and succeed Buttonville.

Any thoughts??

[kp1]

The rumor a few years ago was of a larger runway which would utilize the fill:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.9 ... 4&t=h&z=16

There is a lot of housing development in that area too, so maybe they're just staging the land for another subdivision. Airports aren't profit generators, so my bet is probably houses at some point unless they get some government money to build a runway.

[fleet16b]

Well my bet is that it will become housing.
There is already a large amount of housing near by and at some point the public will be up in arms about expanding the airport
However , if the owners are serious about turning the place into the new Buttonville, their first order of business should be to hire someone that is both aviation savy and can work well with the general public.( something that has always been lacking there)
I have heard lots of comments over the years about the property manager being quite hostile and very quick to run people off instead of trying to promote the airport.

[RatherBeFlying]

If I was a business owner that located close to Buttonville because I needed convenient aircraft access for my business, Markham is just too short on infrastructure to be viable. Don't forget that the employees have to get there too from locations all over the GTA; something that the 404 and 407 are handy for.

YKF and YHM both have ILS and infrastructure -- plus lower housing costs that will offer a nice bonus to employees relocating to be closer to work.

[2775PSI]

Looks like you could squeeze in a 6,000' east-west strip if the green field on the east side is part of the property.

[MarkhamResident]

[fleet16b]

Having spoken with Mr Rubin many times over the years and having friends that dealt with him, one can only say he has announced many many plans and schemes over the years but I guess if you are going to dream, you may as well dream big.
All of these pipe dreams have eventually just faded away.
The "museums " ? humph....ya right .... just try to go and view the collection.
You will most likely be run off but if by chance you do get to see any of the collection you will be greatly dissappointed as most items are poorly cared for and are deteriorating quickly.
It seems that in reality this the museum is just a private collection that somehow got charity status.
The article is accurate when it comes to who owns Markham Airstrip
and the Federal Gov controls the airport issues not the Municipality( see the latest COPA issue for more details)
Overall Markhan is a less than desirable place to build on and really needs more than a 4000 ft runway.........the pipe dreams continue

[bizjets101]

The article was also posted a year ago in the Buttonville thread.

I knew MarkhamResident would have to bite on this topic, and thought it would be interesting to see if he truly had any connections to Markham Airport.

His only info comes from a Google search of a year old article. Clearly no inside knowledge or connections to the airport as suspected!!! Nothing . . . sad . . .

Enough said!!!

[dcabrown]

To the original poster. While yes, the owners of that land do have deep pockets, given the state of the airport as is and some of the feedback from others on here, I question their committment to the aviation industry and therefore to put any money towards development.

Now I hope that somewhere, somehow there will be some (any!) airport development in the GTA, but I dont see that as likely. Private land owners while possibly having money will not want to invest unless they can earn a competitive return on their capital, and it is very difficult to earn a "competitive" return on capital in the aviation industry. There is a ridiculous commenter on here who somehow thinks that Private capital will somehow fill the gap, that private capital is the solution. Got news for ya buddy; Capitalists are capitalists cause they want to make money, end of story. There are plenty of other investments out there (Potash, the banks, energy companies) that make way more money than spending multiple, multiple millions to build/develop an airport and then charge few bucks for aircraft land. I wish it werent that way but it is. The fact of that matter is that in terms of its market value, that land makes far more money as commercial real estate than an airport.

So if you assume nothing will happen at Markham, and Pickering never gets built (Why? Because YYZ still has room to grow believe it or not and because GTAA will want to force traffic to Pearson to collect more outrageious fees) then you are left with basically the existing aviation infrastructure in the GTA.

Oshawa - could absorb YKZ flyers who live in the East GTA + some Corporate? Brampton would get the East GTA Flyers? Markham takes Central(North) GTA and Toronto Island takes Central(South) GTA?? Just shooting out options here.... Perhaps flight training returns to Hamilton? (Tradeport I hear is begging for a flihgt school, though after the S$% they pulled on Peninsulair, not sure who wants to deal with them...)

F#$%. This whole topic is highly depressing. As a rec flyer, it seems like GA has EVERYTHING stacked against it. I'd like to hear some other (constructive) comments from people. Hopefully mine are viewed as such, or at least some basis for constructive debate.

[bizjets101]

Actually very constructive comments, well said, and I agree with everything as stated!!

Here's my idea.

When the Government sold De Havilland to Boeing for a buck, and pumped in $250 million, only to have Boeing flip it to Bombardier!!!, they in turn were able to secure a 25 year lease for the property. (Downsview)

I suggest we close down Buttonville, and Markham. Develop and sell off Downsview - and move Bombardier and the entire GA of Buttonville - to a new GA airport on the West side of Pickering Airport lands.

The airport could be built on the East side of what is now Markham Airport - which in part already sits on Pickering land.

We could have ultra modern GA facilities, attract a few of the YYZ based biz jets, build some nice runways - and what great timing - just in time for the new Global Express biz jet lines.

Bombardier has moved the majority of De Havilland jobs South already, we used to not just manufacture aircraft but finish them as well. All the finishing jobs have long left the country.
It may be possible to attract some of that work back.

Companies like Innotech, Field Aviation, Bombardier, FlightExec, could be like moving the original Skyport area at Malton, De Havilland at Downsview, and GA at Maple, King City, Buttonville, and Markam to one central location.

Between money from Downsview, Bombardier - and issue 20 tax free bonds to build the place.

[dcabrown]

I like the concept, but dont think it would work, and heres why.

For starters, Bombardier is a big player in this country. Toss them out of Downsview and you can be sure they'll send their other manufacturing jobs in Ontario (Thunder Bay..) down to Mexico. Agreed however that downsview sits on PRIME land and would be even more valuable than Buttonville as a Commercial endeavour, but I can only see the Feds selling it if Bomber moves out on their own accord and the land is sitting idle.

Even if you could (in theory) sell off downsview and try and redploy elsewhere, The Feds wont kick farmers or other private owners off their land. (Memories of Mirabel.) And just like private owners, the Feds (especially the ones governing now) will not be able to justify a highly disruptive and expensive greenfield project. Greenfield projects on average take a good 2-3 years of planning for each year of construction. Land owner consultations, environmental assessments, permitting, rights of way, approvals, etc..... Seriously, we'll all be dead by the time a greenfield airport (not currently comtemplated) gets built.

In any case, I dont see any level of government that has the fiscal capacity to take on large scale infrastructure projects, other than real social infrastructure such as hospitals...

So that keeps bringing me back to using what we've got. For a long term solution, it would probably be best to stay away from private airport owners as they can (in a heartbeat) decide to sell out at anytime. As far as I know, Hamilton, Oshawa, Brampton and Toronto Island are the closest municipally owned airports (that I could confirm, not sure about Burlington, seems like its a private owner?) - To me, those places are the "safest" in the longterm, BUT then again, you can end up with a situation like Hamilton, where you can have an operator or city council(?) that is hostile towards GA.

So back to your original question, sure Markham can be a third rate replacement for YKZ, but what do we do when THAT landowner realizes they can cash out the land for a cool $50M to develop a McMansion subdivision...

[Bede]

Here is an interesting article that sheds light on the present injunction preventing the planned runway expansion at Markham:

http://www.iaaecanada.org/fend/article_ ... cle_id=436

Hopefully they will allow the expansion soon to give an alternative for the larger aircraft at Buttonville.

Municialipites never seem to get it. Don't they have legal council to advise them? This type of issue has been settled many, many times.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/201 ... scc39.html
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/201 ... scc38.html
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/195 ... lii55.html
http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/doc/20 ... sc220.html

[bizjets101]

Hmmm, how about the Government just expropriate the land from Cadillac Fariview and the Sifton's. The Teachers fund get their money back, the Sifton's get paid - Toronto Airways becomes a tenant.

You could issue bonds to pay for it.

If you want to get creative!!, you could build a bridge over 16th and an underpass for the 404 and extend the runway to say 6,000 feet. Then build some hangars and move some heavy iron from the Corporate Dept's at YYZ.

I'd be happy!!!

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As for my previous idea, the new GA airport could be built right on the site of Markham!!! Either expropriate Markham, or build it 1/2 mile away and shut Markham down!!

[Truthteller]

And then you woke up.

Buttonville will be gone and Markham airport is going nowhere fast. Markham has their own sense of NIMBYism to overcome. That's why Markham council is heavily against it. If you were on Markham council, would you want old propellor planes flying over you? Yeah I didn't think so. Think what you will, but the truth is no mayor wants this kind of traffic over their house.

Hmmm, how about the Government just expropriate the land from Cadillac Fariview and the Sifton's. The Teachers fund get their money back, the Sifton's get paid - Toronto Airways becomes a tenant.

You could issue bonds to pay for it.

If you want to get creative!!, you could build a bridge over 16th and an underpass for the 404 and extend the runway to say 6,000 feet. Then build some hangars and move some heavy iron from the Corporate Dept's at YYZ.

I'd be happy!!!

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As for my previous idea, the new GA airport could be built right on the site of Markham!!! Either expropriate Markham, or build it 1/2 mile away and shut Markham down!!