Ferrying light singles jobs ?

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Dyski
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Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Dyski »

I have a CPL with around 250 hours and I would like to break into the industry anyway possible, I am also really interested in jobs involving ferrying small single aircraft across the north and south America. Any leads or tips on how to get started would be great guys!

Thanks
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by North Shore »

Dyski,

I think that you'll find that ferry jobs are quite highly specialised, and are thus not really low-time gigs. Unless you happen to know someone who needs their aeroplane moved, then you'll probably be s.o.l.
Look at it from the perspective of a new aircraft owner - you'd either go and pick up your new a/c yourself or, if you didn't feel confident, you'd hire someone to do it for you. However, someone with 250 hours probably doesn't have a whole lot more time than you, the owner, do - so you'd go for someone with high time...

Sorry to rain on your parade - and standing by to be proven wrong.
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Dyski
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Dyski »

Thanks for your reply North Shore,

I recognize the fact that companies specialized in ferrying airplanes would probably require a little more than 250 hours, but what job and company doesn't it ? Still some pilots do manage to get jobs with lower times than mine.. I have been trying getting a single engine PIC gig since the summer. I tried everything from sky jumping ops to small air operators up in NWO, they all need more time. I would really like to get some more PIC time before I get my multi-ifr and head north. Instructing is an option that I would enjoy but jobs are really hard to come by for fresh class 4 instructors these days and most schools are not hiring at all and haven't been for a while so I don't want to spend $ 9000 on an instructor rating and never get to use it.. I am sorry that I am venting out here but after all the hard work, time and money spent I feel like I deserve to get something..
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Cat Driver »

but after all the hard work, time and money spent I feel like I deserve to get something..
Looking back on my time in aviation I can not remember a time when it was easy to get the first few jobs flying.

I also had the same difficulty building PIC time, money was the problem I had...or rather the lack of money.

I solved it by finding airplane owners who let me fly their airplanes as reward for keeping their airplanes clean.

Generally we earn a reward, seldom are we awarded anything of value because we " deserve " it, therefore we almost always have to earn it.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Dyski »

Thanks Cat !

I earned my commercial pilot Licence to make FLYING airplanes my profession. I worked two jobs to be able to afford it,studied and went up flying 2 or 3 times a week to become a PILOT... I don't get this industry's mentality of someone having to work slave labour jobs in harsh conditions, get mistreated and paid peanuts for it in order to pay their dues and maybe one day they will see the right seat of that Navajo!! I am a professional pilot and take pride of my licence so think I deserve an entry level job, I ain't asking for a right seat on the new Dreamliner but perhaps a traffic/pipe patrol or an aerial photography position can do ?

I am not bashing the people that chose to go that route and ramp it to get where they are today but that's not for everyone.. end of rant!
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Cat Driver »

Dyski, it was not my intention to make you feel defensive.

Looking back on my career I am not sure if the rewards were worth the sacrifices I made.

Good luck in whatever you do.
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Dyski
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Dyski »

Cat, I'm sorry I didn't mean to get defensive .. just a little bitter towards this industry i guess :).. Anyhow, thank you very much for your time and input which I really do appreciate.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by warbirdpilot7 »

When I first got all the requirements(CPL, Multi IFR) and 250hrs I did'nt even consider ferry flying. Still don't at my total time.

Yes it is alot of money and hard work(but all of us knew that going in). Now, I'm up to my eyeballs doing the Instructor rating, and not even knowing if there will be a job offer at the end of all this.
I towed gliders for a summer, not paid of course, but logging time. I do some volunteer flying during the summer and have a great time doing it, with great people.

As for the first job, its one of the hardest things to accomplish in this industry. Remember in aviation, when there is movement at the top, there usually is movement at the bottom.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by North Shore »

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation, Dyski. Bet they didn't tell you that it would be this hard to get a job when you walked into your flight school! Patience is your friend. It's the dead of winter, going into Christmas now, so most places will be quiet, I'd suspect. Things will get started up again in the middle of January, and then on into the spring, depending on how the economy shapes up..
We all appreciate that you got into this game to be a professional pilot, but that might require some time being a professional janitor/freight loader/joe-boy, as that seems to be the way that things go these days. Kudos to you if you manage to circumvent that step, but probably more realistic to suck it up, and expect to have to do it, and be surprised if you don't.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by ogc »

Dyski wrote:Thanks Cat !

I earned my commercial pilot Licence to make FLYING airplanes my profession. I worked two jobs to be able to afford it,studied and went up flying 2 or 3 times a week to become a PILOT... I don't get this industry's mentality of someone having to work slave labour jobs in harsh conditions, get mistreated and paid peanuts for it in order to pay their dues and maybe one day they will see the right seat of that Navajo!! I am a professional pilot and take pride of my licence so think I deserve an entry level job, I ain't asking for a right seat on the new Dreamliner but perhaps a traffic/pipe patrol or an aerial photography position can do ?

I am not bashing the people that chose to go that route and ramp it to get where they are today but that's not for everyone.. end of rant!
No offense and I dont mean to sound rude....

But I think you should have done a little more research before getting into this.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by pika »

So to recap; you're a self proclaimed professional pilot looking for your first job who's bitter at the industry and deserves a job but won't work the ramp and expects to be paid what he is worth? :lol:
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Rowdy »

Time and time again posts like yours come up. I was there myself just a few years (holy smokes 7 years already?!?) ago. I'll try and paint as realistic a picture as I possibly can for you.

Sadly you deserve nothing. The aspect of getting a commercial licence is not that much of a challenge, pay the money, fly the plane, write the basic exams and you come out with a licence to learn. Hence why the market for commercial pilots is saturated. I'm not ragging on you per se, but the general attitude of my generation.. we all believe that we are entitled or we deserve, without actually putting in an effort for the formative years. Lose the chip on your shoulder, keep your chin up, be as positve and hard working as you can be and you will prevail! Its all a matter of effort. Ok. End of Rant!

As for ferrying light aircraft.. theres actually a significant amount of risk involved and it's a lot of work. I've ferried a bunch of twins now with the help of a rather large and substantial flight department and even THAT is a challenge. I've also moved a couple of light singles...You dont just hop in wth the tanks full and fly from say Calgary to Miami, stoping for fuel a couple of times a long the way. Its a huge balance between, winds and weather, flight planning, fuel stops, overnights, unforeseen circumstances, snags, maintenance issues etc.

Just think, you've crossed the border, gone through customs, fuelled, rechecked weather, it's marginal at best.. theres some ice out there (hey it is winter time after all!) a couple TFRs to avoid, some re routing, you've got some time constraints, you can only file vfr, head out.. get to an impassible point weather wise.. "ohh shit it didnt go as forecast.. it got worse!" and now you're scrambling to find a local airport with services and probably a hotel.. but theres not much around at this point.. out come the maps and the flight supp. hmm.. there IS one 60 miles in the wrong direction, you gonna have enough fuel? So you get lucky and do find a closer field.. They have fuel, but it's gonna be a 1/2hr cab ride into town.. the airplanes going to sit outside (in the freezing rain now) all night.. hmm what about the battery? Sure is gonna take a while to de-ice it by youself in the morning.. How am I for fuel? I'm not catching any of that ice now am I? Oh shit.. the boost pump quit... okay.. I'll need someone on the field to fix that.. gotta call the owner too.. it's gonna be an extra day. You finally get on the ground, a little shaken now, some large splatters of ice on the leading edge and the tail.. hmm.. now what. Sit in bumbledunks nowhere for the night.. have a bite to eat, catch no sleep as you're watching the weather and worrying about the customers plane and maybe tommorow morning you can find someone to fix that boost pump. You can, but he's gotta come in on his day off, it's gonna cost you, the owners now a little pissed about the added expense. But it's a quick fix (thankfully) and you're out scraping the ice off.. found someone who happns to be able to help you fuel as your fingers are now freezing from the hour it took de-icing. Weather looks ok, re-check it again.. damn new TAF out, not getting better.. the Metars locally look like garbage. Gonna sit a while longer. The airport manager comes over and wants to charge you for both nights now (he wasnt around when you showed up) and wants you to move the airplane to the itinerant parking spot on the other side of the icy ramp.. kinda slick though and that battery is pretty freakin cold.Will the beast even turn over? It'll be a long push and another call to the AME if it doesnt... and this is really only your first leg of the trip...

Getting the picture yet? Ferrying is not for the inexperienced or the faint of heart. Theres a good reason specific companies offer these services and their pilots are well experienced in the art of ferrying.

Your Best BET, if you want to avoid 1) ramp 2) instructing.. is to either get a job swamping for an op that has a 180 or 185 that they may check you out in, work your ass off for them and hope for the best.. or find ANY place that has a jumpzone or tows gliders and pester them to fly for a season.. get a few hundred hours and then you're set.. or if you're lucky and have some money to burn, buy/borrow/steal something cheap on fuel to fly and go out and pound off a couple hundred hours flying all over the country in the summer and build the time on your own dime. Or get involved with a local air cadet program and help out with ground schools and fam flights.. or the CASARA program.. Where theres a will.. there is a way.

Remember, you are owed nothing. You will only get ahead by showing someone that you have the drive, determination and solid attitude required before they'll let you out in their +100K machine. Thats why soooo many are forced to sit on the ramp or dock for a while. Again.. thanks to greed, a lot of companies will take advantage of the situation and you'll be there for a while. The trick is to find one that either has decent turnover or is remote enough that when someone does leave.. there arent another 10 guys in town waiting for that spot.

Be smart about your decisions, mind the deserving attitude (we ALL have it, we are all pilots afterall ;) ) show a good work ethic and you'll do alright. We've all been there, nobody needs to hear a sob story, it wont get you anywhere.

All the best to you in the search for that elusive first job. Get busy in the spring and have your list of e-mails and places to call ready. Theres a TON of info available on this board if you use the search function or ask in a polite manner. Guys nd Gals from all over the country (and world) with piles of experience. There are also a lot of owners and chief pilots that frequent these parts too..
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by flaps operator »

Dyski, please do not take this as a negative or rude comment because it isn't meant to be:

There are a lot of people fresh out of flight school who believe they "deserve" flying jobs because of the money or effort they put into it, or just because they are that damn good. The honest truth is that at 250 hours a pilot is more of a liability to a company than a contributing member, and this is completely normal. There is a tremendously steep learning curve from training to actual world flying...and i'm not only talking about IFR. I was lucky enough to get a fire patrol gig a year after flight school and even in those operations you are pushed to fly in unfavorable weather conditions in a VFR airplane that you aren't used to...now I'm not the sharpest knife in the rack (I mean, I am a pilot :lol: ) but I don't remember "NO" being a suitable answer in those types of operations. Point is, you need experience to be safe/proficient and you need experience to get experience...its the classic catch 22 of aviation.

What I'm getting at is that even after fire patrols I still had to stick it out and fly a desk for a year before I got an IFR job. The point is that doctors don't come out of university as surgeons...they apprentice and learn their trade over several years, and that is what ramp/dispatch/freight joe jobs are...LEARNING THE OPERATION. Don't spit on a ramp/office job when you have no idea what they are...those of us who chose not to instruct have all done them and have learned a great deal / made a great deal of friends while doing so. They are also a great way to get your foot in the door while finishing up your multi-IFR. Yes, the pay is bad, the conditions aren't the best, but they are a means to an end and a great way to meet people and make contacts.

You're not gonna "deserve" anything just because you have your licence...and you will realize that once you get a little experience. Don't forget that you chose to go to flight school. You will DESERVE something once you EARN it.

again, this isn't an attack, simply an eye opener.
PM me if you'd like some more info about fire patrols or dispatching.

Good luck in your brand spanking new career.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by av8tor_assrope »

+1 on everyone’s comments so far. I just wanted to add one little thing. Don’t just set your sights on working the ramp/dock or instructing. Consider that your back up plan. Set your sights on getting right seat in a ho, twin turbine or PIC on a single. I was hired directly into the right seat of a twin turbine. No uncle who’s the CP or dad who use to fly there ect. Right place, right time, mixed in with a bit of persistence and networking. Most of the guys I went to school with all started on the ramp or instructing because they figured that was all they were going to get. Some of them didn’t even apply to companies with light twins….they just took the first job they could find on the ramp. Then when I got my job everyone was like WTF?

My 2 cents.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Lost Lake »

I might need someone this summer on a 180. (The last guy is now flying one our beavers). Send me a pm. See assrope, I'm not all bad.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Europilot »

What a load of crap most of you come up with. When I got my CPL I had a sense of entitlement, because this licence meant I could be a professional pilot. Not a rampee, dispatcher or joe Boy. Pilot! So I left Canada and the stupid mentality that you have to be a broke pilot living on KD and treated like crap and hopped right on to a shinny A319. Thank god I left the status quo of the morons in Canada and bailed. As an FO, making more money than a WestJet Capt.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Lost Lake »

Europilot wrote:What a load of crap most of you come up with. When I got my CPL I had a sense of entitlement, because this licence meant I could be a professional pilot. Not a rampee, dispatcher or joe Boy. Pilot! So I left Canada and the stupid mentality that you have to be a broke pilot living on KD and treated like crap and hopped right on to a shinny A319. Thank god I left the status quo of the morons in Canada and bailed. As an FO, making more money than a WestJet Capt.
I call Bullshit!!
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by TA/RA »

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: TROLL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Europilot »

You call BS because you are an uneducated fool who thinks the Canadian way is the only way. 150-200 hour pilots are laughing at you guys. Flying heavy metal at 19-20 years old. Brainwashed fools. Call BS, look at the req'd minimums for EasyJet... FlyBe even pays for part of your flight training. Ie. CPL MEIR. Then onto the Dash or E170/190. Open your eyes! Troll my ass. Come to LGW and say that!
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by BEFAN5 »

Europilot wrote:What a load of crap most of you come up with. When I got my CPL I had a sense of entitlement, because this licence meant I could be a professional pilot. Not a rampee, dispatcher or joe Boy. Pilot! So I left Canada and the stupid mentality that you have to be a broke pilot living on KD and treated like crap and hopped right on to a shinny A319. Thank god I left the status quo of the morons in Canada and bailed. As an FO, making more money than a WestJet Capt.
And how much did this cost you? Twenty thousand Euros? Not to mention your total lack of hand/foot flying abilities, and your lack of PIC required to ever leave that right seat.

Back to Dyski,

This industry seems harsh at the best of times when starting out. If you really think about it, can you blame it? Flights schools will take in as many students that come their way, and we all know getting into it how low the demand actaully is in the profession. Companies can not hire pilots for planes they don't have. Until the number of CPL licenses being issued are regulated we will always have this problem.

When I finished my CPL I was willing to go anywhere and do anything. This was in the year of the recession and I did not hear back from anyone for over eight months. I nearly gave up and stayed where I was. I had an office, a desk, a computer, and was making decent money. When I did get the call, I took the offering with no second thoughts. I often felt the same as you, not wanting to do this silly ground work, I am a pilot after-all. The moral of the story, I worked my ass off, showed I wanted to be there and found myself in a plane flying a turbine a lot sooner than I had expected.

There are no easy answers for 250hr ppl holders. You either waste time sitting in your bedroom writing on avcanada asking people how to get out of cleaning planes, or you go out there and start working towards your career.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Europilot »

BEFAN5 wrote:
And how much did this cost you? Twenty thousand Euros? Not to mention your total lack of hand/foot flying abilities, and your lack of PIC required to ever leave that right seat.
What! Lack of PIC time. How do you think you get upgraded? You don't need heaps of PIC to get a jet command. We get upgraded when we have the Total Time and the vacancies come up. I've been in for 2 years and command looking 2 years away. By the sounds of some of you I have to go fly a HO in the northlands to fly the "Bus". And for the lack of stick and rudder comment, who cares? Autothrottle, auto trim, ICAS. Pay Cheque!

Cost...it's called opportunity cost. Where will I be in five years? In Canada, maybe a turbine capt in some northern operator earning squat, or here, A319 capt, and still young enough to pull the hosties.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Ecco »

Lost Lake wrote:
Europilot wrote:What a load of crap most of you come up with. When I got my CPL I had a sense of entitlement, because this licence meant I could be a professional pilot. Not a rampee, dispatcher or joe Boy. Pilot! So I left Canada and the stupid mentality that you have to be a broke pilot living on KD and treated like crap and hopped right on to a shinny A319. Thank god I left the status quo of the morons in Canada and bailed. As an FO, making more money than a WestJet Capt.
I call Bullshit!!

And i second that !
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by Europilot »

Call BS on it. If you are that stupid to think there is no world outside Canada, then maybe you are too stupid to fly a jet. You may get lost off the coast of Nfld. Can't believe you people don't know what goes on in other parts of the world. Go find out for yourself on an Int'l fourm like PPrune, are you going to call all of my colleagues BSers? There are a few expat north americans here, atleast they looked at a globe and figured out the aviation world doesn't revolve around Canada and the United States. Obviously you have never looked at the hiring practices here.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by sarg »

Dyski wrote:Thanks Cat !

I earned my commercial pilot Licence to make FLYING airplanes my profession. I worked two jobs to be able to afford it,studied and went up flying 2 or 3 times a week to become a PILOT... I don't get this industry's mentality of someone having to work slave labour jobs in harsh conditions, get mistreated and paid peanuts for it in order to pay their dues and maybe one day they will see the right seat of that Navajo!! I am a professional pilot and take pride of my licence so think I deserve an entry level job, I ain't asking for a right seat on the new Dreamliner but perhaps a traffic/pipe patrol or an aerial photography position can do ?

I am not bashing the people that chose to go that route and ramp it to get where they are today but that's not for everyone.. end of rant!
A friend of mine took that attitude and has a very rewarding career, in ATC. He never flew a day as a commercial pilot.
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Re: Ferrying light singles jobs ?

Post by sarg »

Europilot wrote:You call BS because you are an uneducated fool who thinks the Canadian way is the only way. 150-200 hour pilots are laughing at you guys. Flying heavy metal at 19-20 years old. Brainwashed fools. Call BS, look at the req'd minimums for EasyJet... FlyBe even pays for part of your flight training. Ie. CPL MEIR. Then onto the Dash or E170/190. Open your eyes! Troll my ass. Come to LGW and say that!
I think most are calling BS on the wage statement, unless you care to back it up none of the info I've found online supports the wage claim. You also need the right to live/work in the EU not an option for everyone.
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