Age Discrimination?

[Ifly]

Watching all the friction going on with the Flypast60 issue at AC from the sidelines has raised a question in my mind. Isn't age based discrimination inherent in society anyway? How can the government state that it is illegal to discriminate based on age without far reaching consequences?

Examples:

1. Can't vote till 18
2. Can't drive till 16
3. Can't drink till 18
4. Can't get an ATPL till 18
5. Need medicals every 6 months after age 40
6. Prostate Check after 40

Everything is based on age. This seems like a big can of worms to me....

[BTD]

4. Can't get an ATPL till 18

[Ifly]

Sorry BTD it's 21, too long ago already...

From CARs

DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE
421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(1) Age

An applicant shall be a minimum of twenty-one years of age.


The point of the question remains.

[BTD]

I won't get involved in the rest of the thread, I was just giving you a hard time.

[. ._]

You're bringing up a decent question. It'll be interesting to see how it's debated.

That being said, there's no way a guy over 60 should fly a plane.

Oh, wait a minute...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Melvill

I mean no one over 70 should go into space...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glenn

OK.

I'm gonna shut up.

There's no way someone can fly a plane after age 70. That's a fact. Shut up, Cat Driver. You'll make me look bad.

-istp

[CJ3PILOT]

You're bringing up a decent question. It'll be interesting to see how it's debated.

That being said, there's no way a guy over 60 should fly a plane.

Oh, wait a minute...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Melvill

I mean no one over 70 should go into space...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glenn

OK.

I'm gonna shut up.

There's no way someone can fly a plane after age 70. That's a fact. Shut up, Cat Driver. You'll make me look bad.

-istp

]p
Well I hate to bust the bubble you,re in but theres a member of the Bramton flying club who still holds an instrument rating and he,s 85 and still going.I sure hope you make it to 30..

[Ifly]

I certainly don't mean for this to become another thread against allowing pilots over the age of 60 to continue to work. As I work for Jazz where 65 is the accepted age, I really don't have a problem with it. I'm simply curious about the precedent, and whether the government would issue a blanket law banning age based discrimination given its prevalence in society.

[Cat Driver]

There's no way someone can fly a plane after age 70. That's a fact. Shut up, Cat Driver. You'll make me look bad.

No problem istp, I retired at 70 because I decided to spend the rest of what ever time I have enjoying life.

I will now compete with Hedley for bragging rights.

When I retired I held a pile of licenses that were valid.

Along with my Canadian ATPL and Commercial Helicopter licenses I also held the following.

FAA Commercial Gyroplane License.

Authorization to teach in the following countries.

Australia.

South Africa.

Europe.

An unrestricted Airdisplay Authority for Europe. ( Eight years flying the airshow circuit in Europe. )

When I get my life back on track I plan to fly again for pleasure and maybe teach flying again for a while.

After over half a century of flying for a living I managed to accumulate over 30,000 hours accident free on so many types I can't even remember them all.

The two flying jobs I most liked were flying for Miramax and Ag. flying.

[Meatservo]

Age based discrimination is more prevalent in society than you outlined in your post. Out of all the human beings on the planet, guess how many people over about 122 years are still alive? NONE! This also happens to be the same number of people over the age of 100 that currently work for Air Canada! This is also AGE DISCRIMINATION! Something is happening to our supercentenarians, and we need to find out what before more of them disappear!

[tsgas]

Age based discrimination is more prevalent in society than you outlined in your post. Out of all the human beings on the planet, guess how many people over about 122 years are still alive? NONE! This also happens to be the same number of people over the age of 100 that currently work for Air Canada! This is also AGE DISCRIMINATION! Something is happening to our supercentenarians, and we need to find out what before more of them disappear!

Are you sure about Air Canada? Some of the senior FA's look like they're close to 100.lol

[Bushav8er]

Age discrimination is one thing but how about Hours Discrimination? I wonder how many pilots with over 5000+ tt are being passed over for 1800 hr pilots? Of course age may play into this too.

Possible excuses:

- over qualified and would leave for 'bigger, better' to soon,
- unteachable, ingrained bad habits, unwilling to change,
- can't take instruction/leadership from lower time/younger Captains.

Comments/observations?

[Meatservo]

I can't say I've ever heard of anyone having that particular problem. I can see it happening if the 5000 hour pilot was for some reason applying for an entry-level job that was more appropriate for an 1800 hour pilot. Maybe he or she should set his or her sights a little higher.

[. ._]

Or just fudge his logbook a bit.



That reminds me. Christmas is coming. I've been a good boy. I wonder if Santa could bring me 1800 hours...

[KK7]

- unteachable, ingrained bad habits, unwilling to change,
- can't take instruction/leadership from lower time/younger Captains.

Comments/observations?

When I was younger, I was flying survey full time, and from time to time the company would hire high time guys from other streams of aviation such as water bombing, on short term contracts to fill in from time to time. I was a lower time Captain in the company, and had the opportunity to train some of these guys.

Now there are some young little punks with bad attitudes out there that might take advantage of this situation, but I'd like to think that I went into it not acting like a douche. My thinking was that it was my job is to teach these guys how to survey, and about the airplane if they haven't flown it before, then in the process, I hoped to get something out of their vast experience also.

For some, this all worked out well, and for others, not so well. In the not so well cases, I didn't have any problems with attitudes towards me regarding a young low time guy teaching an older high time guy, but that they had such ingrained habits - not bad ones, just plain habits - that made teaching them surveying downright impossible. Usually the aircraft wasn't a problem since it was usually simpler than what they were current in, and they likely flew something similar sometime in their past.

However there was one case where it just didn't work out at all on both accounts with a guy who had 10 000 + hrs. The company had promised him Captain due to his experience, and he badly needed this money for his retirement. Yhey failed to notice that most of this time was all FO and I found he wasn't capable of making any kind of firm decision about anything by himself. He was a good guy, but just not a good fit for the job.

Anyhow I generally found the success rate with lower time guys was slightly better than the success rate teaching higher time guys, however not by much. Later I was working as a Safety Officer having to deal with incident reports. I generally had more numerous and frequent problems with the higher time contract guys than the lower time full time guys, but this is partly due to the short term guys being less current with the procedures and the job than the full time guys who have been doing the same thing day in and day out for several years.

I'm not making any judgements here, just relaying my real world observations. I also say this as I approach that 5000+ hr club, and hope that I don't fall victim to these problems.

[Bushav8er]

Meatservo - thanks but lets assume that the jobs applied for weren't 'entry' level (and not everyone wants the majors)

KK7 - thanks for the insightful input. So in your experience, the lower time guys were 'only slightly better' (to train) than the higher time one.

I for one take input from younger or lower time pilots. If we are training in my field, I'll listen, I'm sure that they have insights too, and I maybe comment where I can help them. BUT if I'm in an area that is NOT my background, I fully admit to not knowing the procedures and look to these pilots for answers and welcome THEIR input. I am one that is 'always learning' and freely ask questions and seek answers in all areas of our profession.

I just wish that ALL prejudges were set aside so that everyone is judged as an individual, if that isn't the case.

[coreydotcom]

I've always found it ridiculous how you can vote in Ontario at age 18, go to war and die for your country at the same age, but can't have a beer.

I'm saying Ontario because I've never been anywhere else but I think it's like that a lot of places (in canada)

[KK7]

KK7 - thanks for the insightful input. So in your experience, the lower time guys were 'only slightly better' (to train) than the higher time one.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. But I think it's mainly due to their keenness. Not saying the older guys weren't willing to give it their all, but they are generally more laid back and more patient to learn, whereas the younger new guys are trying everything possible to soak up every little piece of information they possibly can.

Now I work in an environment where I fly with a whole variety of experiences and backgrounds. Old, new, ex-bush, ex-instructor... and I love how regardless of experience or background, we're all able to share experiences and help each other out. I get good tips and and new ideas from new guys with fresh perspectives and interesting questions that I hadn't thought of before, and I get good tips and new ideas from older guys too. The mixed bag of backgrounds also brings a great variety of ways to solve problems too. Glad we can all just work together.

[Bushav8er]

Glad we can all just work together.

As it should be.

[Meatservo]

Meatservo - thanks but lets assume that the jobs applied for weren't 'entry' level (and not everyone wants the majors)

OK, sorry chum, I was assuming you were talking about entry-level jobs... If you can get a certain job with 1800 hours, it's pretty much entry-level.