Recommendations for mountain training / checkout in Alberta

[Posthumane]

I'm a relatively new pilot with a 172 based out of CYXH (Medicine Hat). I'd like to fly out to Kelowna at some point, but since I did all my training in the prairies I think it would be a good idea to get some time flying in the mountains with an experienced instructor. Does anyone have any recommendations for instructors/schools to get this done? I had talked to Alex Bahlsen about this a while back (he did my PPL ride) but I see he is no longer CFI at high river. Is he still instructing?

On a related note, there are effectively two routes to go VFR from Medicine Hat to Kelowna - either through Calgary, Golden, etc. or through Pincher Creek, Crowsnest pass, Nelson, etc. Do people have any preferences between the two? I know that winds can be brutal though crowsnest pass, so that's a calm morning flight.

[Beefitarian]

The Calgary Flying club used to be quite good because many of the members actually fly that way so the courses seemed real. I typically use the Highway 1 preferred VFR route. I figure if I have a problem I want to be as close as possible to people that can come get me.

I'll defer to others to see if anyone has more current information.

Mountain flying is pretty cool. It's one of those things that's not a big deal as long as you get some decent training and respect the potential hazards. It's spectacular to be flying through a pass where there's mountains beside you. The scenery is increadible.

403 288 8831 http://www.calgaryflyingclub.com/

[Beefitarian]

Does anyone know what's going on in Lethbridge? That could be a good option too. Those guys would be pretty current on windy conditions that's where the crowsnest pass blows. I don't know anything about the FTUs there and if they offer mountain courses though.

[ybwflyguy]

Alex still does flight tests and some freelance, PM if you'd like his email - excellent instructor and great individual.

With regards to mountain flying, please do not come to YBW without getting some recommendations. A 20 year old Class 4 from the Club is fine for doing a few circuits, but mountain flying is something that can go wrong very quickly, and presents a lot more hazards than a regular flight (all things I'm sure you're aware of which is why you're wisely seeking some training).

As idealistic as it sounds, try and find an experienced pilot/instructor who has spent lots of time flying in the mountains. Book him/her for at least a day, and take in as many mountain airports as you can.

I won't let my instructors do "Mountain Ratings", the average Class 3/2 guy at YBW will be fine for a familiarization flight into the rocks on a great weather day, but if you want some real training (i.e. learn more than just a canyon turn) then try and get some recommends from the old timers on the boards here.

All the best

[Beefitarian]

Strange, I personally know an instructor at the club that's been there for 20 years not sure what class instructors rating she is holding right now. Ooops, I'll get out of here so you can continue your sales presentation. Sorry 'bout that.

At any rate flyguy found your man Alex, so you're good to go.

[Posthumane]

Thanks for the replies so far, though I'd rather keep this thread open for advice to people wanting to do some mountain training and not turn into a pissing match between flight schools.

I'm looking for an experienced instructor over the run of the mill class 4/3 because I think they will have valuable tips to pass on that a new(er) instructor would not have, so flyguy's recommendation is not out to lunch. He did not say "don't go to YBW," he just said get a recommendation first.

What altitudes do you typically fly through the VFR routes? Do you ever cut across ranges to save time? Also, I'm reading Sparky Imeson's book right now. Any other resources which are useful?

[oldtimer]

I lived in Lethbridge and Pincher Creek for about 15 years but left there in the early 80's so things may have changed since then. But when I lived there, there were very few pilots who ever ventured into the mountains so to find someone capable of doing a decent job of mountain checkouts was quite slim.
Years ago a real cowboy moved from Fernie to Pincher Creek and did serious mountain checkouts but unfortunatly got carried away and wrecked his airplane, killing himself and his student. Her would deliberatly fly into a box canyon where the only way out was a chandelle or stall turn type of manouver. One day he just got in too far. That scared many away from the area.
I would go to either Cranbrook, Nelson, Castelgar, Kelowna, Penticton, Vernon or some other place with a certified flight school who would do a PROPER job of checking someone out in the mountains.
I have no idea what goes on in Calgary. Although I lived in Calgary and flew in the mountains a lot, it was always with pressurized turbine twins which is a different story. There is a big difference between VFR in a Cessna 172 and IFR in a King Air 350 or Metro. I had diddly squat to do with any flight training organizations in the area but if you want to stay in Alberta, I would look around Springbank. There are properly certified flight training organizations there.

[FlaplessDork]

The type of mountain check you get will depend on what type of flying you're planning on doing.

Are you a weekend warrior, going to do work in the mountains, or are you wanting to land on the side of a mountain?

The VFR routes are as simple of mountain check you can get, and you won't experience much of what mountain flying is really about. Which is OK if you're just going to go on those clear windless days to major centres. You'd want a better checkout if you're going to do some serious stuff in the Rocks.

There used to be a guy who owned a Wildlife Survey company at CYBW with C-337's who was also a Class I and did thorough mountain checkouts. He'd take you to some really tight spots. Unfortunately, he is off to fly in Africa for 4 years with his wife.

Also, I'm reading Sparky Imeson's book right now. Any other resources which are useful?

Sparky recently killed himself by getting himself in a tight spot trying to take a look at a previous crash site of his while doing a mountain check. Mountain flying is not to be taken lightly. http://www.examiner.com/aviation-in-den ... lane-crash

[Lurch]

I'll start by clearing the air, ybwflyguy is not Alex, I have had discussions with him in the past and he is smart enough not to do Mountain training, he has tried to send at least 2 my way since summer, so he is not making a sales pitch.

If I'm correct in assuming, Beef is recommending Palma, who I would also put my recommendation behind. Palma also freelances and is the cheapest freelance instructor on the field. If you want her number I'll get it for you, it would be cheaper to get her to freelance one trip verses paying the club fee and the clubs instructor rate.

Dork, recommended who I would consider the best instructor in the area, but as he mentioned Mike has/or is in the next 2 days leaving for Kenya and won't be back in country for 4 years and I doubt will ever flight instruct in YBW ever again.

One of my two biggest instructing pet peeves is inexperienced instructors teaching IFR and Mountain flying, I don't think anything under 50 hours in the rocks qualifies you to train others.

I refused to do Mountain training until I had well over 100 hours of mountain flying myself, and would recommend all of my students do the training with Mike, He probably has more time low level in the rocks then I still have total time.

Now that I spoke my peace, Kelowna is actually a very easy flight. From YXH you can almost go direct Cranbrook, the hardest part is crossing Sphinx Mountain and area to get you across by Crawford Bay and Kooteney Lake, tight valley through Nelson and then you pop out just north of Castlegar, once through it's quite simple and almost flat. there are high Plains just East of Kelowna. don't try to cross the ridge at the airport but north towards Vernon, just stay south enough to avoid the parachute drops and gliding area East of Vernon. To the south of Kelowna there as a nice valley to descend in that will put you perfectly on final for 34, It's part of the VFR departure route but can't remember the name of the reporting point.

The Crowsnest does get some high winds and these will extend almost all of the way up to YYC, but if you can get across the first ridge you'll be in the clear. In the winter there are very bad Mountain waves on the Eastern edge of the rocks which can give you more then 2000fpm down drafts. I highly recommend that you don't even try to go into the mountains if the 12,000' winds exceed 20kts. I used to have 25kt wind limits but got caught too many times in strong down drafts that I lowered my limits back down to 20kts. A more powerful airplane helps a lot but something with very little power like a 172 you can get into trouble very fast if you aren't prepared. Always have a way out before going into any valley, never commit yourself to only one route, and where the is a down draft there is always a up draft near by, you just need to know where to look.

When you search for an instructor treat it like you are hiring an employee, interview them and find out their experience, if they know about as much as you do, you aren't going to get your moneys worth, and if it's anything less then a day of training, you did not get the proper training.

Good luck, and enjoy it. Mountain flying is some of the most rewarding scenic flying you can do. But don't ever relax, no matter how may times you've flown in them. They are beautiful but deadly and will kill you the first chance they get.

Lurch

[Beefitarian]

flyguy didn't say he was Alex, he said he could get in touch with Alex.

I have no issue with him yet, for all I know his school is much better than the club, I personally just didn't fall in love with the, "Don't go to The Calgary Flying Club their instructors might be fine for circuts but..." pitch. I've heard that before.

I don't have any interest in the club other than as a customer. Still, my only issues there are, it costs more than $75/hour for a 172 wet and the fact that it's not back in the days when I knew everyone. I'll defend them against someone suggesting it's just a bunch of kids running around with pee stained pants instructing there though. I can't defend everyone there because like I said I don't know them.

Lurch is right regarding whom I was refering to, I've known her for more than the lifespan of the instructors rumoured to be the club staff.

[Shiny Side Up]

Incidentally, contacting Alex, Mike or Palma is a simple matter since they're all DFTEs in the Calgary area. I would wager that there are a few other experienced people on that list who still do some sort of instruction, freelance or otherwise.

edit: I see Mike has finally been removed from the list of Examiners, someone does update the site!

[Posthumane]

Now that it's the new year and things have calmed down a bit I will start contacting the persons mentioned in this thread. Thanks for that link Shiny, and thanks Lurch for your tips about routing and weather. I don't have my maps in front of me atm, but I had planned on coming upon Kelowna from the south, possibly over Penticton. It looked like once you get west or Castlegar and Arrow Lake the options open up a bit.

I am just a low time weekend warrior at this point and don't have intentions to work as a pilot, but I want to become as good as I can and not limit myself too much due to lack of training. Aside from Kelowna, I'd like to explore all of the rockies, maybe fly in for ski trips and camping, etc. The 172 I have right now isn't the best short field performer, but I figure if I can learn to fly that close to its limits then when I get something that has better STOL capabilities it will make things that much easier. Aside from learning mountain flying, I'm hoping to eventually try my hand at aerobatics, gliders, maybe some float flying, etc. All of those things will probably make me a better pilot in the long term.

I was aware that Sparky Imeson perished recently. In fact it was right before he was supposed to give a seminar on mountain flying at the COPA fly-in at Springbank.

[Cat Driver]

I was aware that Sparky Imeson perished recently. In fact it was right before he was supposed to give a seminar on mountain flying at the COPA fly-in at Springbank..

The most interesting thing about his crash is he was doing exactly what he told everyone else not to do....pushing weather.

[CpnCrunch]

I was aware that Sparky Imeson perished recently. In fact it was right before he was supposed to give a seminar on mountain flying at the COPA fly-in at Springbank..

The most interesting thing about his crash is he was doing exactly what he told everyone else not to do....pushing weather.

Either weather or just flying too damn low/close (or probably a combination of the two). Steve Fossett apparently died the same way, and someone on this forum crashed into the side of a mountain a few years ago but luckily survived.

Having said that, if you do it on a calm/CAVU day with a good forecast and you don't fly into any tight spots, it's not really any more dangerous than any other type of flying.

If you don't have a detailed topographic map (half-mil VNCs are not detailed enough) then google terrain is very useful for planning routes - just go to google maps and then select 'Terrain' in the 'More' menu.

Also, Steve Coontz (the novelist) has some of the best advice for mountain flying: "Never, ever climb into a canyon toward a pass: Get your altitude before you enter":

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot ... ntain.html

[Beefitarian]

Good advise Captain. I don't have mountain flying experience. I just have flying from YBW to the coast and back Via Penticton and Revelstoke. I hung out at my Uncle's house in Abbotsford for nearly a week waiting for hope slide to clear up the first trip.

Personally my key to "mountain flying" is being willing to wait for good weather. I also like to fly at 8500 or 9500 ASL. I don't need to get closer than needed to any hard surfaces thanks.

[northern33]

Since we are talking about recommended routes...

Any advice on routes to Vernon from Northern Alberta (Fort McMurray?)