What to Buy....?

[ArcticKat]

Greetings everyone, obviously I'm new here. Not so obvious, I'm new to aviation too. I like to call it my midlife crisis. I'm 43 and just got my PPL in August of last year. I'm so new that I still get nervous calling the FSS for a weather update. In addition to my flight training I have a total of 5 hours on a Cessna 150 and 1.2 on a C-172.

I do have a goal in mind and would appreciate hearing the experience of those who know better than I.

I have 4 children and our family tends to take vacations over the 1000nm range 2 - 3 times a year and 15 - 20 in the 250nm range. I'd like to own an aircraft that can transport all of us yet be reasonably economical. I've looked at singles and twins and I think I've pretty much settled on a Piper Turbo Lance II or a Saratoga. My price range is in the 100k area.

Ultimately I would like to obtain an IFR and Night VFR certification which would enable us to travel in more situations than my current day VFR rating. I've been told that acquiring insurance for the plane I have in mind may be next to impossible with my limited hours. So, my question is...

Should I return to school and use their aircraft to acquire the training I want to achieve, or, should I purchase the plane that I want and use it to take the training...thereby increasing my hours on the aircraft I intend to have for the rest of my flying experience.

[Orest @ CYFD]

If you are pretty definite on your plans, then it would be a good idea to get your "final" plane sooner. However, as you note insurance may be prohibitive or impossible given your current status.

OTOH, they may do something like require 50hrs of Dual with your new plane, which would be good all around. A Lance is a lot more airplane than a 152 or 172.

Nothing lost in calling a Broker and inquiring.

* Orest

[Beefitarian]

Definately buy the plane and train on it. You won't have to pay for rental and it will be time on type.

What does everyone think about finding a fresh instructor and offering hours in trade for training? This would seem to me like a bonus for both parties. Free training for you and free time on something besides DA-20/c-172 for him.

[Pirate Pilot]

You have two extra kids.....If you had 4 people total a Cessna 182 is the hot ticket. Everything comes together with a compromise here and there. (IMHO) I would recommend you find a friendly and competent insurance agent and enter into a long conversation with him regarding rates for various 6 place aircraft you have in mind and discuss the hours and qualifications needed to obtain what you feel is an "acceptable" premium. Various insurance co.'s have rates re: hours, ratings, horsepower, c\s props, retractable gear, "high performance" as well as insurable seats. (6 costs more than 4) . After narrowing down your search for "your" aircraft perhaps research the history for the most problamatic years and models regarding maintainance and repair. There are some aircraft out there that will bring tears of pain to you and tears of joy to a FBO.

[Slats]

Check your PMs

[fish4life]

206 on wheels would suit the 4 people fine although might be in the upper price range

[iflyforpie]

Before you start plunking down cash, ask yourself a few questions first.

How onboard is your family with traveling on light aircraft?

Light aircraft are smelly (especially the Pipers with all the fuel plumbing under the rear seats) noisy, bumpy, too cold or too hot, and usually drafty. We as aviators of course love all this stuff, but this isn't the family minivan or coach on Westjet. Entertainment options are better than they were way back when (I used to work at Pimp My Plane and I've seen some pretty cool aircraft entertainment systems). A bathroom break is a big undertaking if bottles aren't an option. 1000NM is a very long trip in a light aircraft.

What are your expectations of the aircraft?

Is a typical trip going to be leave on Friday afternoon to the cottage and be back for Monday morning school and work? I'm going to tell you right now, in any GA aircraft where you have to go a long ways on a schedule: You are going to run into time delays. You are going leave your aircraft behind as you figure out alternate transportation. You of course, are going to have to go back and get the aircraft. IFR should only be a cloud layer busting exercise in a light aircraft, not boring through to minimums. There is nothing casual about flying night in a single piston engined aircraft, especially if there is weather or high terrain.

Okay, that's only a couple questions. But I had my mid-life crisis at 26 and have had at my disposal for many years now several aircraft ranging from two seater trainers to six seater light twins, for very low costs, to take me and my million dollar family (we still all fit in a 172 ) anywhere we wanted to go. To go most places, it was actually cheaper than driving by the time you took off the cost of eating on the road and the fact that roads in BC aren't very straight.

But after paying a few ramp parking fees and Greyhound tickets after getting weathered out, I don't do too many family flying trips anymore. I'll pay somebody else and let them do the flying.

[ArcticKat]

Thanks for the info guys. My previous instructor thought much the same as Beeftarian. She could provide me with dual time that most insurance companies required. One guy had to have 80 hours on type, so that was what he did. Brought his plane to the school and paid the instructor to teach him IFR and night VFR.

@Iflyforpie, these 1000nm trips are for minimum 1 week stays, I figure the Lance or Saratoga would need a pit stop every 4 hours or so and my family is two teenage boys and two 6 month old infants. One pair can hold it, the other pair is still in diapers. We have a houseboat on Shuswap that is an 18 hour drive from where I live. We also travel to Mexico or some other warm climate once a year for a week or two. Stuff like that. The shorter trips would be day trips or overnight because I live 250kms by ground from the nearest WalMart. Regarding the IFR, that's just what I want it for. I have no intention of risking my family with my inexperience by flirting with the minimums. I just want to be able to fly above the low cloud in the bright sunshine.

Eventually I will probably be asking more questions about Nav and Com systems. Does anyone know of a flight simulator that provides the ability to customize the panel with different brands of hardware? It would be nice to "try before I buy" sorta thing.

[KAG]

Arctickat, after obtaining your Night and IFR ticket, please don't go blasting off into IMC weather thinking all will be ok.
Sadly the IFR ticket is a license to learn, and once outside the training world there is still a lot more to see, experience to gain, prior to completing an IMC trip solo.

I used to teach IFR, and on two occasions I had to call my previous school, and warn them that so-and-so was coming in to rent one of the IFR rated planes to take his friends up. I strongly advised then they shouldn’t allow this to happen as while he holds an IFR ticket, he is not ready to fly IFR by himself, and that I could end badly.

Also I gather you live up north. Be extremely careful flying in black hole areas (areas with no lights on the ground, overcast layer). I have had a few friends killed flying in areas such as these, due to night flying. A simple take off, looking outside when there is nothing to see (normal right, your VMC) is a great way to get you and your family killed. Black hole flying is IFR flying as you have no visual reference, and requires advanced IFR training/experience.

Great idea to get your plane, and learn on it. Have fun, fly safe.

[Hedley]

I will probably be asking more questions about Nav and Com systems

It's really very simple, for IFR in a light aircraft. Buy a Garmin 530. If you can't afford a 530, get a 430.

Combined comm/vor/loc/gs/GPS/moving map/database, approved for IFR enroute, terminal and approach. Note that IFR GPS is an approved substitute for DME.

A G530 and a transponder/encoder is all you will really use for IFR avionics. Most people might stick in a KX155 as a second comm/vor/loc/gs, and that means you need an audio panel. Garmin audio panel has a nice intercom in it. That's it for avionics, actually.

If you intend to fly in cloud single pilot, I might strongly suggest an autopilot which will hold heading and altitude. The other bells and whistles are nice, but what you need is heading and altitude. If you are flying single pilot and lose your autopilot, seriously consider declaring an emergency so that you can get a clearance in the clear ASAP, if you're a guy like KAG describes. See JFK, jf.

Another addition for light aircraft IFR: stormscope. Cheap and essential for summer Cb dodging. You can't put radar on a single very easily - well, some people put those bombs under the wing, but they have tiny antennas - and there is operator skill required with on-board radar. None required for stormscope.

Another essential piece of equipment for light aircraft IFR, which I am sure I will be shat upon for a great height for suggesting: an electrical attitude indicator, for when you lose your vacuum pump. Also, you need two red lights on your dash: one for low voltage, and one for low suction. Again, I will be viciously shat upon for daring to suggest that, but IMHO.

[ArcticKat]

Thanks for the sound advice Kag, if there is one thing I have learned in my life, it's that I will never stop learning. I'm the type of guy who decides what he wants to learn...then goes out and learns more than I need, just so I can add to the foundation of what I have learned. For me, an IFR ticket is not for the purpose of flying below VFR conditions, it is so that when I am flying VFR, I will not be limited in my options is IMC develop. If I have to have 80 hours of dual time to be properly insured, I might as well learn something else while I'm at it.

@Hedley. I've played with the 430 on a flight simulator a little bit...it does look like a good choice, I just don't know what else is out there. Here is what is on one plane I am considering...

1981 Saratoga

• Century 41 Autopilot featuring a Heading Bug and Altitude Hold
• Collins AMR-350 Audio Panel with 3 LMB
• GARMIN 430 GPS / Color Moving Map / Com / Nav
• Garmin GI-106 VOR / Glideslope Indicator
• Collins VHF-251 Digital Com
• Collins VIR-351 Digital Nav with To/From Radial Information
• GARMIN 396 GPS / Yoke Mount
• Narco 890 DME
• 3M WX900 Weather Avoidance System
• Collins TDR-950 Transponder with Mode C
• (6) Place Intercom System
• JPI EDM 700 Graphic Engine Monitoring / EGT / CHT / TIT
• JPI 450 Fuel Flow Scan
• Northstar M1 Loran – (INOP)

Of course, before I buy anything I'll have mt AME inspect it first.

[Liquid Charlie]

I agree with ifly -- you have to take a real close look at what you want to do and be honest - don't get caught up in the passion of an idea - we can justify just about anything in our own minds and I say don't buy this airplane based on what you want to do with your family - it's all about you and what you want to do and don't use the excuse of family holidays to justify a dream. No one wants to touch on the gruesome side but there are a lot of people who meet a tragic end with the same ideas you are experiencing. Be damn sure you are qualified and proficient before you load your family in an airplane - your 1000 nm trip can certainly turn into far more that a week with bad weather - fact is in 1000nm you will go through different weather systems and what you think is a "high performance" airplane is ill-equipped to cope with icing - t storms and such -

I don't want to rain on your dream but you need to continue flying and learning for yourself and not use your family to justify your dream or cash outlay for an airplane - I would suggest you send your family commercially and fly yourself in a rental to see what it is really like before you strap them in the seats. They are not necessarily being honest with you when they seem to support your idea.

Be careful and be ready and ironically you likely need a lot more experience before you get to a place where everyone especially you are comfortable striking off on your own.

Buy the smaller airplane and log time and get that experience before you go to your dream machine - take your time - learn well and don't rush - if your family is truly supportive they will understand and be glad and safer for it.

[Doc]

A while back I was seriously looking at a nice travel trailer. Then, my wise wife pointed out how many nights we could stay in a Holiday Inn Express for 20K! Great beds. Free breakfasts. Hot showers.
Unless you are really willing to put in the time "learning" in the smaller airplane, as LC suggested, I'd take WestJet, sit back and enjoy the crappy jokes on family trips.
I've been at this a while, and I would hesitate to head off on a thousand mile trip in, say a Cherokee 6, and be able to guarantee my ability to keep a schedule. There are just too many variables in operating light aircraft. T-storms in summer, ice in winter, I have enough trouble doing a 300 mile day on my motorcycle without getting rained on!

[ArcticKat]

The beauty of having my own aircraft though is that I don't have to follow a schedule. I don't have to report to the airport 3 hours before my flight to get through security. I don't have to leave when they do, but when I want to. I've been considering a trip to Indianapolis for a while. Recently a friend flew there and I asked him to keep track of his time from when he walked through the airport doors in Saskatoon and out in Indy.

In VFR conditions I would have still beat him there. I don't want a plane because I want to stick to a schedule. I want it because I want to make my own and not have to worry about a schedule. If I have to wait somewhere for a few days for weather to clear...so be it. That's all part of the fun.

@Liquid Charlie, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. There is seriously something there for me to chew on.

[Shotgun Chuck McCoy]

ArcticKat;

Everything everyone has said so far is pretty much gospel, but reading it, I do feel that there is an overtone of "don't do this, just fly commercially and save yourself the hassle". Even with that being said, that's what I do - I personally wouldn't buy an airplane as a method of transportation, it would just be a toy. It is FUN to fly.

My thought is that buying an aircraft would be an excellent choice for you. However, if you do buy an aircraft, realize that it comes with a set of conditions and they are NOT flexible. Conditions like:

1)You WILL have to let it sit around most of the time, and things that are supposed to be moving don't like to sit. It still costs money for them to sit.

2)For EVERY trip you plan, accept the fact that you are not going to get home on time. If you do, great, but when you don't, it won't be a big deal if you planned for it, so the pressure to get home, or (here it comes) "gethomeitis" will be a lot less - hopefully it won't exist at all. It is a very real killer. By your post above, it seems like you are well prepared to do that, so good for you, but STICK TO YOUR GUNS.

3)If you buy it to use it as a transportation method to save time, you will never use it enough to justify the time savings. The times that you do use it, as above and as others have stated, you will eventually run into mechanical and/or weather delays that negate any anticipated time savings...

BUT, buying it as a way to have FUN, and just happening to get from A to B sometimes, and not getting all twisted up when you are late or can't go in the first place (basically accepting that as part of the purchase agreement with yourself), well, you can't go wrong then.

4)The most important (in my opinion) condition regarding the operation of an aircraft, regardless of whether or not you own it is the requirement for the operator to have a set of rules guiding their decision making process. This set of rules shall ground you well before you would end up in a situation demanding the maximum of your abilities. They are not negotiable. Over time and with experience the threshold MAY go up, depending on the frequency with which you fly, but it may never increase especially if you only fly a few hours a year with long stretches in between flights.

The rules include, but aren't limited to:

Personal weather minimums, for both forecasted and reported weather. BE CAREFUL CROSSING THE ROCKIES. Winds (mtn wave today?), ceilings, OAT, etc. Even if the forecast was wrong, you'll still be safe and sound if you didn't go. If you went and it was wrong, well, who knows?

Trip distance maximums - how far can you go before you need a rest or to quit for the day? How about your passengers? (you already had touched on that one from a passenger physiological point of view...)

Aircraft condition requirements - for a beginner, I would suggest NO snags. None. Some may argue, but it's just how I roll, and I don't consider myself an expert, it just made ME comfortable. Replace that nav light bulb, get that loose intercom jack fixed, and keep extra batteries for your headset's noise canceling (if you use that type of thing). Little things might seem trivial, but the slope gets pretty steep and slippery if you start letting many little things add up, especially when you don't do this all the time.

Turn Around, or land and take a break. If the going looks like it'll get tough, or you just aren't feeling it, get on the ground and call it a do-over. This isn't the war - we don't HAVE to get there, and I think you'll learn more from being cautious than you will from "challenging" yourself with adverse conditions you haven't encountered with an instructor. If you've got the cash for the plane, put aside a yearly reserve for your own re-current training with an instructor, and get them to be with you as you broaden your horizons beyond your current experience level. Or, befriend a pilot who has IFR or other experience you are interested in exploring, and who you know you can trust to support your decision making, while still helping you expand your experience level. Take them flying. Don't let them push you though, You are still the PIC. That last one might be a toughie, but if it could happen it would be great.

Lastly, as I mentioned, the conditions are NOT flexible. The parameters around them may change, but the basic idea is that you tell yourself the truth about each situation as you look at it, and hold yourself accountable for your decisions and actions as the PIC.

If you are prepared for the unpredictable experience, go for it! From this experience I am sure you will gain an increased level of self-respect and confidence, and your family (provided they understand your point of view on the conditions you set for yourself and they agree to be supportive when you strand them in Edson for a couple of days due to thunderstorms, or send them on the 52 window loser coupe when you have a breakdown in Salmon Arm) will look forward to and cherish the memories of the flights and the times they will and have spent flying with you.

-FIN-

SCM

[Beefitarian]

Sorry but I'll have to rain on the parade too "Your wife and kids are not going to be into all parts of the plan." It's possible one or more of them will outright hate it.

I agree with you and would love to take my family on 1000nm trips but know I might as well buy return trip tickets for anyone that has to come home for work or school by a particular time before we leave, so they can get back while I putter along stoping for a few days at a time to wait out weather. I have sent people home on greyhound or commercial jet a few times because they had to get back for work.

I still think you might all love going to the house boat once or twice, it might get expensive. Like iflyforpie mentions once you're dealing with the rockies you should expect to be caught by weather more often than not on a trip longer than a couple of days, if you're not presurized you're not going to be safe for any mountain IFR. Personally I would not want to risk much IFR in a single at all, especially if the weather really sucks. Too much risk and I don't think there's much reward, if any.


Don't get me wrong, if you can afford it I'd still get the plane and see how things go. Trips to West Edmonton mall, the Renolds museum in Wetaskawin, Calgary, Kalispell Montana should be awesome. Possibly relatively quick in the planes you mentioned.

I wanted to stop in Indy once but didn't plan ahead enough as it was just going to be a fuel stop. I can't remember what airport I planned for but it was the only time I have been refused for landing and I had a flight plan. It was the hub for Fed Ex and the controler would only say "Stay out of my Charlie airspace." weather started to suck and I ended up doing an actual diversion. We ended up in Crawfordsville, it was actually cool, it was the home of General Lew Wallace there and his library is a museum. He wrote "Ben Her" there.

So in some ways you're totally right. Getting caught by weather can be a great thing. That was in 1995 or 6 and at that time flying in the US&A was fun in my opinion. The FBOs were really friendly and it was nice to talk to people along the way. Hedley goes these days, I suspect other than the customs guys which are probably ok if you act in a responsible manner airplane people are probably still friendly.

[ArcticKat]

Thanks for the info SGM and Beefitarian. As always. much respected food for thought from my betters. I suppose the "new" of our own plane could wear of somewhat quickly. As far as my speaking family is concerned, (twins are 6 months old) they have flown with me or others in 150s and 172s. I admit, they may not be as excited of the idea as I am, but they have not expressed any reservations either. I suspect that prior to actually purchasing an aircraft I will likely rent one I am checked out in to take the family on a long trip to see how they fare.

Regarding flying through the Rockies...indeed, that does concern me and is not likely something I would even consider attempting alone. I do have a close friend who is a commercial pilot, no doubt our first trip will include him in the right seat. The Saratoga could fly above the mountains...provided I ensure the oxygen system is appropriate to the need. Again though, my first trip will not be alone. I'm not one to "push the envelope" rather, I prefer the safety of doing something dual first before I try to solo.

Part of any vacation is the trip involved. I just feel that taking 2 or 3 days to fly to Cancun could be far more fun and interesting than 6 hours in a 737.

BTW, was that Airport at Indy Eagle Creek? I had determined that if I were to fly in there, that would be the destination.

Edit:

One other thought I've been considering is to buy 2 planes. The Lance for big 500+nm family trips, and something smaller, like a VFR 172 that the wife and I can pile into for a day trip to the nearest WalMart...250kms away or take to my occasional workplace 340kms away. We tend to travel in excess of 500km round day trips 15 - 20 times a year. A small plane maybe even a C150 would be a nice trip compared to the drive.

[Beefitarian]

I'll have to see if I can figure out where I was planning to go by looking at the skrawling on my VNC. It was a long time ago.

I ended up going back to Crawfordsville on the way back and even getting a 50 hour inspection done there. "The american AME asks, you want what? Let me check, I think I can do that." The FBO was staffed by good guys and I noticed I was not going to have enough time on the plane to get back. I had phoned home and talked to them about what to do. That might be part of the reason they talk about checking the logs before you go do circuts now at the Calgary flying club.

[Doc]

You go buy that plane. Just be careful out there. When in doubt, chicken out. Ask questions. Ask them again. Stay safe. Have fun. There's lots of free advice here. Keep in mind, advice is worth every penny you paid for it. Have FUN!!!

[Beefitarian]

Doc - the advise you just gave is worth a lot, I don't think you can beat it for any price.

So I looked at the chart and the track line just goes straight to the VOR. I'm not positive but I think I wanted to use SPEEDWAY 3SY but was worried about who to contact in case it was restricted to invites or something. It was one of those, "Hey, there's an NHRA points meet on this weekend, maybe we should see if we can pop in for that." I think I ended up planning to IND which didn't work.

I probably would have been able to get into 3SY no problem only to have to fly out to find a place to sleep. Eagle creek would have been a good one but probably crazy busy that weekend too.

The american pilots were spoiled back then. No wonder there's storys about them going way up north looking for Vancouver. ATC there provided flight folowing on request, it's kind of like being in a control zone. You fly from VOR to VOR and if you go off course they call you on the radio to ask if you're awake sort of thing. They give you traffic advisories, tell you when to slow down and decend for your destination and you're radar identified the whole time with mode C. There's a huge chunk of Montana that your out of range for your radios so you can't do it there.

By the way I'm not even your peer anymore, I'm not current. I share your delusional idea of loading my wife and two soon to be screaming kids into a light twin with my Dad for long trips filled with wonderfull surprizes. And I do hope to fly even more this year than the partial hour last year.

[light chop]

There are people out there that do seem to get a lot of utility out of their own aircraft, if you're really bored and have some time to waste, Flight Aware can be your friend. As an example, this fella and his Mooney (based out of Edmonton) seems to get around quite a bit. Granted, an Ovation 3 a well equipped traveling aircraft:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGPNA/history

(if you log into flightaware you'll get a lot more history)

LC