negots?

[teacher]

Seems very quite on the Eastern front. Any word, news, progress? Contracts are up in April is it?

Good luck to you all as I know how tough we had it at Jazz.

[El Comat]

I'm also curious to know if a TA is close at hand. From what I've heard, the company and ACPA are obligated to have a TA by Feb 1 or ACPA can scrap the Sky Regional scope issue. Can anyone confirm this?

EC

[genetic jack hammer]

Easy there El Comat. Before they can come up with a TA, they need to deal with a major crisis at hand, C2 pass travel for Jazz employees!

[IronMan]

lol

[Brick Head]

I'm also curious to know if a TA is close at hand. From what I've heard, the company and ACPA are obligated to have a TA by Feb 1 or ACPA can scrap the Sky Regional scope issue. Can anyone confirm this?

EC

Not can scrap the let. The let has a drop dead date of Feb 1. However remember the existence of the let was really just a bridge until new scope language could be negotiated. Even if the bridge drops into the river it doesn't mean it can't be rebuilt.

Expect no restrictions on the number of tier 2 carriers AC is able to use with a new CBA.

AC has already requested to operate Sky out of YYZ as a result of the TPA delays.

[rudder]

AC has already requested to operate Sky out of YYZ as a result of the TPA delays.

What TPA delays? (TPA = Toronto Port Authority)

Looks like this video needs to be updated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaLzwMBHMps

[mattedfred]

Has the arbitration hearing for the Q400 grievance taken place yet?

[Brick Head]

YTZ

No the Q400 arbitration has not been held and likely never will. I doubt very much the issue will come out of negots unresolved.

We have no intention of flying Q400's. However scope issues must be dealt with though negots or arbitration. Leaving the issue unresolved and unchallenged just leads to estopple.

[mbav8r]

Expect no restrictions on the number of tier 2 carriers AC is able to use with a new CBA.

Really, is that the route your going down. Cut off your nose to spite( a malicious, usually petty, desire to harm, annoy, frustrate, or humiliate another person; bitter ill will; malice)
your face.
If you go down that road and the end result is a destruction of Jazz's revenue, guess you'll have even more competition than just the TC flying. Jazz has approval to operate scheduled service with large aircraft domestic and international, access to a reservation system and a much lower cost or maybe that is what you want. If I were ACPA pilots, I'd be more than concerned at this point.

[tailgunner]

MBAV8R,
Do you see the irony in your post? You are accusing or warning ACPA/AC not to cut off their noses to spite their face in regards to diversifying their connector flying. The irony lies with your next statement..If Jazz's income is reduced , it will compete directly against AC...Hmmm that seems like a GREAT idea...lets run 757's to YVR against AC...And we will expect NO FURTHER reaction from AC????
Uh, I think that one would see a severe reduction in Jazz's income if they were to pull that stunt....
Would Jazz actually buy their own fuel, pensions, uniforms, etc etc....just a thought

[mbav8r]

There's no irony intended, it's the law of unintended consequences. ACPA agrees to allow unlimited tier 2 operators, Jazz takes a cut and realises they could make more as a stand alone, now AC has both Jazz and Westjet competeing with them on domestic/U.S routes, leaving AC with only two choices, cut wages or cut jobs. If Jazz wasn't good for the AC bottom line, they wouldn't have extended the CPA to 2020, but you ACPA people seem hell bent on getting rid of us, careful what you wish for...

[bcflyer]

ACPA is not hell bent on getting rid of Jazz. They are simply looking out for their pilots. It wasn't ACPA who suggested using other airlines to do the flying, it wasn't ACPA that started Sky Regional. The amount of flying done at the Tier 2 level will not increase with the new scope clause. It would simply allow other airlines to do the flying.

Jazz has shown that it wants to go its own way and compete with Air Canada. Why should AC continue to fund its direct competitor? If you think Jazz is set up to run on its own without the CPA you might want to have another look at what Jazz currently pays for and what it actually owns...

I was at Jazz for 8 yrs and have nothing but respect for all the guys and gals I worked with while I was there. I would like nothing better than to see them all do well. My fear is that Jazz management has made a serious tactical error by going after all the extra TC flying...

[fly4ever]

Hey All. Been reading for years but never posted until today! Has anyone else thought that maybe the reason for another company flying out of YTZ is that when a contract is signed for rental, gates, etc... and they pull out a few months, years later, it will be without long term effects. A company needs to still be around for any damages to be paid. Just a thought.

[Brick Head]

Really, is that the route your going down. Cut off your nose to spite( a malicious, usually petty, desire to harm, annoy, frustrate, or humiliate another person; bitter ill will; malice)
your face.
If you go down that road and the end result is a destruction of Jazz's revenue, guess you'll have even more competition than just the TC flying. Jazz has approval to operate scheduled service with large aircraft domestic and international, access to a reservation system and a much lower cost or maybe that is what you want. If I were ACPA pilots, I'd be more than concerned at this point.

mbav8r,

I was stating facts as I presently understand them. I was not providing opinion on what I think about it.

Before I broach the subject of opinion however, you must remember this.

There is nothing spiteful in our actions. ACPA is doing what is best for ACPA pilots. That simple. That is their mandate full stop. ALPA Jazz's mandate is ALPA Jazz's pilots full stop. It is why they went after the E190's. Neither ALPA or ACPA would ever consider trading negotiating capital for the other party full stop. Why? Because of the hierarchy we have set up. The mandate of all groups is inward rather than for the greater good. Until we change that? We will always look after our own special interests with complete disregard for other parties. Who's fault is it that this issue still has not been addressed? Everyone's. The only difference now is the shoe is on your foot. A few years back it was on ours. A few years from now it will probably be back on ours. But we "all" are responsible for doing nothing about it.

As for my opinion. Jazz can not be left as the sole Tier 2 provider for AC. The corporation will hold AC ransom during CPA renewal without viable and in place competition. However IMO we should be taking steps to ensure we don't create a race to the bottom as this transpires.

The only real fix is a national list with a powerful governing body, dedicated to the profession at large. Then allow mobility between corperations. JMO

[Brick Head]

If Jazz wasn't good for the AC bottom line, they wouldn't have extended the CPA to 2020,

mbav8r,

At least make statements that are accurate.

The CPA renegotiation was good for AC's bottom line as it reduced the markup on the CPA. Estimated to be a 40 million annual savings. In exchange for that Jazz demanded AC agree to extent the CPA to 2020. No extension? No yearly savings. It is false to assume the extension reflects AC's contentment with the present CPA rates. It only reflect they were desperate for the 40 million in yearly savings. However even the date 2020 may be suspect as 2016 brings with it a demand from AC. A newly inserted option for AC to drop Minimum utilization levels as they see fit, if AC's domestic market share drops by a specified amount. None of us know what the specified amount is. Jazz may have only been given a year extra in exchange for the reduced markup. We have no way of knowing at this point.

but you ACPA people seem hell bent on getting rid of us, careful what you wish for...

Again accuracy. It is AC doing this. The last I checked ACPA does not sign, pick or negotiate commercial agreements with suppliers. What ACPA is doing is removing itself as a barrier to AC's intended actions. ACPA is doing so because if they don't, Jazz the corporation will take full advantage of the situation, to the detriment of AC and its employees at CPA renewal. Again I point to ACPA's mandate. They are following it.

If you still refuse to believe me when I state it is AC that has their sites set on Jazz, go read the Q3 comments by CR on the subject. He was specifically asked by a reporter why no Jazz in YTZ. The answer was cost.

[rudder]

If you still refuse to believe me when I state it is AC that has their sites set on Jazz, go read the Q3 comments by CR on the subject. He was specifically asked by a reporter why no Jazz in YTZ. The answer was cost.

Yes. And that decision is working out really well for AC so far. You get exactly what you pay for. Remember, failure to account for the 'risk' cost of any decision can make cost comparisons misleading.

[Dark Helmet]

WOW

Someone asked how the negots are going over at AC and even wished you good luck. All you could come up with in return was another pissing contest on why AC should get rid of Jazz and vice versa.....

Negots must be going really well if this is all you can talk about .......That and the retirement issue.

[teacher]

WOW

Someone asked how the negots are going over at AC and even wished you good luck. All you could come up with in return was another pissing contest on why AC should get rid of Jazz and vice versa.....

Negots must be going really well if this is all you can talk about .......That and the retirement issue.

I know HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Word I got from an AC FA on a recent flight was that pilots were offered a "Net Zero" deal. Recieve gains in one area and lose them somewehere else. Anyone care to comment?

Again accuracy. It is AC doing this. The last I checked ACPA does not sign, pick or negotiate commercial agreements with suppliers. What ACPA is doing is removing itself as a barrier to AC's intended actions. ACPA is doing so because if they don't, Jazz the corporation will take full advantage of the situation, to the detriment of AC and its employees at CPA renewal. Again I point to ACPA's mandate. They are following it.

Whose being held hostage? AC holds all the power as the prime customer which why Jazz MUST look for outside work.

[600RVR]

Ah yes an AC F/A as a source of info involving AC pilots negots. Come on Teacher you know better than that. That's the same as reading the last 22 pages of reliable info with the guys beating the same dead horse thinking that it's all gospel instead of waiting for the final decision to come out on age 60.

Cheers
600RVR

[Norwegianwood]

Ah yes an AC F/A as a source of info involving AC pilots negots. Come on Teacher you know better than that. That's the same as reading the last 22 pages of reliable info with the guys beating the same dead horse thinking that it's all gospel instead of waiting for the final decision to come out on age 60.

Cheers
600RVR

From the amount of genuine info that comes from acpa, I'm inclined to believe an F/A source as a very good one. especially with acpa's high scoring batting average of years gone by

[teacher]

Ah yes an AC F/A as a source of info involving AC pilots negots. Come on Teacher you know better than that. That's the same as reading the last 22 pages of reliable info with the guys beating the same dead horse thinking that it's all gospel instead of waiting for the final decision to come out on age 60.

Cheers
600RVR

Perhaps, but it's more info than anyone's been able to gain on here. If anyone's in the know and can or cares to comment why not than?

[Localizer]

Perhaps, but it's more info than anyone's been able to gain on here. If anyone's in the know and can or cares to comment why not than?

A good poker player always keeps his cards close to his chest.

[600RVR]

Again we are negots. What kind of info do you want. Info will come to use through roadshows when they think they have a deal. You know that. The same as the age 60 thing it's before the courts therefore ACPA again has nothing to say to us until a decision is made. Then we will find out what's the next move if any at all, for both issues.



600RVR

[teacher]

Well that's a better answer thanks. Things are progresing but nothing is to be made public yet, ok than.

[mbav8r]

As for the F/A source, while we were in negotiations, there were F/As with inside information. They got it from an F/A that was married to a pilot. So, I wouldn't discount the info solely on the fact it came from a flight attendant.