100LL Prices

[cgartly]

Has AvGas been going up in price significantly in other areas of Canada also? I just had to purchase 100LL in Kelowna from the Shell Aerocenter and it was 1.869 per litre. Ouch.

[Hedley]

Houston, TX is usd$4.05 per US gallon of 100LL. I think that's around $1.07 per litre.

[cgartly]

I sure wish I could get an autofuel STC for my O-320-H2AD. Unfortunately does not seem one will ever be available and engine is only 160 SMOH so it will be a long time before it is replaced.

[Hedley]

Start with this TC doc:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/EN/TP1 ... 10737e.pdf

then click on this Petersen STC:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enDocument

which specifically lists the 172N which only had the O-320 H2AD engine.

I'm just a dumb stick & rudder pilot. Am I missing something?

[Big Pistons Forever]

One of the growing problems with MoGas is that the STC's specify the fuel can't have any ethanol in it. It is now practically impossible to get Zero ethanol car gas in the US and Canada is not far behind.

The other issue is persistent reports of valve troubles in Lycoming engines using MoGas. For this reason I look at MoGas as an "emergency" fuel for my Grumman AA1 (Lyc O235) even though it has the Peterson STC. A related issue with MoGas is the very restrictive OAT limits on its use, particularly for winter blend car gas.

Anybody have any personal experiences with MoGas ?

[iflyforpie]

When I was working in YYF was ran our 172s on MoGas exclusively except when fueling on cross-countries. (O-320 E2D 150HP)

Wound up with a stuck valve on one engine after about 400 hours and pulling it apart we found quite a bit of scoring in the barrel and on the piston skirt. The engine shop knew right away that we were running MoGas and voided the warranty (Millenium cylinders).

100LL all of a sudden seemed very cheap in comparison.

[Hedley]

There is a difference between not scratching your @ss, and tearing yourself a new one. Somewhere inbetween the two extremes is a good balance.

Similiary, 100LL has 'WAY too much lead in it, for low-compression engines. You run an O-200 (eg) on 100LL, the exhaust valves are going to stick with all the lead accumulated inside the guides.

However, mogas has ZERO lead in it. What to do?

Personally, I think 80% Sunoco 94 and 20% 100LL makes a superb gasoline. You will NOT detonate your normally-aspirated, low compression aircraft piston engine on this cocktail. It will start well in the winter, it has some lead in it for internal lubrication, but not so much that it's going to gum up the guides.

Too bad they don't make 80/87 any more.

PS Millenium cylinders are junk regardless of what gas you run.

[midwingcrisis]

Sunoco stations for the most part are gone in Canada, although 94 is available at some but not all Petro Canada. It does have 10% corn added in summer grade. Winter grade is somewhat better (pure). Still need an STC for that blend though. Newer valves and proper leaning should eliminate most issues. My .02 cents

[Old Dog Flying]

The Langley self-serve 100LL is $1.58/litre. My Grumman AA1A has the high compression conversion which calls for 100LL...no Mogas..even though 94 oct Mogas is available nearby..and it is cheaper but not by much

[cdnpilot77]

The company I flew for in the summer ran almost exclusivly on Auto gas and Av gas mix. Our beaver has the Mogas STC but we run it with straight AVgas and we pay $1.07/L + HST.

Incidentaly, I checked a gas pump today as a break off from another thread that Hedley started re: cost of gas. The breakdown for tax is this $0.147 Provincial Excise Tax + $0.10 Federal Excise Tax + 13%HST added to every Litre. That more than makes up for the $0.25 difference in price between us and the USA

[fish4life]

a Beaver with MOGAS sounds like a bad idea even with the STC that engine has some pretty high compressions

[cdnpilot77]

a Beaver with MOGAS sounds like a bad idea even with the STC that engine has some pretty high compressions

Hence why I only run on Avgas, it came with the stc...there were no records to indicate whether it had used mogas in the past.

[CpnCrunch]

One of the growing problems with MoGas is that the STC's specify the fuel can't have any ethanol in it. It is now practically impossible to get Zero ethanol car gas in the US and Canada is not far behind.

Alberta doesn't have any ethanol in gasoline unless things have changed recently. Also, Shell V-Power is meant to be ethanol free in all provinces AFAIK.

[cgartly]

Chevron here in BC has a 94 Octane fuel which is also ethanol free I believe.

I agree with Hedley's comments about blending fuel to reduce the lead content but still have some lead for lubrication.

I'm sure my H2AD would run fine on a blend like Hedley suggested however I am also sure TC would take exception.

I have looked at the Peterson STC's and in the STC itself the 172N is only approved with an engine other than the O-320-H2AD, many 172N's have had their engines changed for D2J's or back to E2D's under other STCs.

[N2]

Well for what it is worth, after lengthy discussions with the EAA and looking at their test data on Mogas I switched my 0320 E2A over to it. Aside from what all the local "experts" have said I can detest to the fact that my engine has never run better!

[linecrew]

Only one of the two FBOs in Ottawa sells 100LL and I think the price is up to like $2.20/L (!) and they won't even waive the ramp fee even if you buy fuel. With a price like that they can go self-fornicate.

Good advice: If you go flying anywhere make sure you source out cheap fuel as part of your planning so you don't get royally screwed.

[cdnpilot77]

Thats a good point linecrew. I am just starting to plan a trip to the Gaspe area (Ste. Anne des Monts). I will need a stop along the way and was thinking Trois-Riviere. Anyone know or have an opinion of the best places to stop between montreal and quebec city?

[iflyforpie]

PS Millenium cylinders are junk regardless of what gas you run.

I don't think so. Junk maybe in their lack of quality control resulting in a plethora of ADs (which is why I will never buy ECi or Superior jugs again). But operationally on 100LL I've never had problems with them. We had to pull a set on our 172 at 800 hours because of an AD and they were all in the high 70s, even colour on the exhaust valves, and you could still make out the horizontal machine marks on the piston where vertical scoring often takes place.

Well for what it is worth, after lengthy discussions with the EAA and looking at their test data on Mogas I switched my 0320 E2A over to it. Aside from what all the local "experts" have said I can detest to the fact that my engine has never run better!

You engine will run better day to day because of the lack of lead fouling and the better atomization of MoGas. Pretty much all of our 172 flying is operational (we are not an FTU) with mixtures ruthlessly leaned on the ground, climb, cruise, and even takeoff. But we have to clean plugs every 50 hours instead of 100 to prevent bad mag drops because of lead fouling. Every time I get a set of plugs from a plane with MoGas, just a couple second blast in the cleaner is all they need. No dental picks or vibrator cleaner to get the hardened lead deposits out.

[structurespilot]

I just paid $1.50 / L for 100LL at Innisfail Alberta. If I had my own plane it would be drinking a 60/40 blend of Mogas to Avgas. I'd also think nothing of burning Mogas most of the time if the price just keeps going up. Keep in mind we are talking about small low compression engines like 360's and lower.

[N2]

25% 100LL and 75% 87 octane mogas will give you the same lead content as the old 80/87

[f650]

St. Thomas airport 100LL is $1.38/L + HST. Self serve pumps. No landing fees and the airport manager does a great job of keeping the runways clear, which has been nearly a full time job lately.

[Birddog27]

To cdnpilot77,
You should try Victoriaville (CSR3) for your stop between Montreal and Quebec city. People there are very nice and fuel is cheaper. But i do not remember the current price...

[flyalmaguin]

South River Sundridge District Airport has 100LL for $1.60 per litre, including all taxes as of the date of this post.

Check it and the airport out at http://www.flyalmaguin.com/pilot-info.html, and watch for important airport development news coming near the end of February!

[cdnpilot77]

To cdnpilot77,
You should try Victoriaville (CSR3) for your stop between Montreal and Quebec city. People there are very nice and fuel is cheaper. But i do not remember the current price...

Thank you

[cantnotar]

Avgas at CYLW is 2.16? a liter but only 1.562 i Vernon, 15 minutes North!