Industry sounds warnings on airline pilot skills

[Panama Jack]

Lets be honest with ourselves. . . do you feel it too?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... kills.html

[Jerz]

See it all the time, especially erosion of basic flying skills in guys with years of automated flying experience. Then there is the issue of quality of training of the younger pilots entering the industry. I guess you get what you've paid for...

[2.5milefinal]

The basics are almost gone. Attitudes and Movements anyone?
OH yea ...look out the front window once and while.

[Hedley]

the study found that "professional pilots have suffered a significant decline in their basic instrument skills and, in general, pilots are not aware of this skill degradation".

Didn't Japan Airlines, some years back, buy some Citations for it's pilots to drive around in, to address this problem with their long-haul pilots?

[CJ3PILOT]

The basics are almost gone. Attitudes and Movements anyone?
OH yea ...look out the front window once and while.

F.M.S eye ball sucker

[burninggoats]

the study found that "professional pilots have suffered a significant decline in their basic instrument skills and, in general, pilots are not aware of this skill degradation".

Didn't Japan Airlines, some years back, buy some Citations for it's pilots to drive around in, to address this problem with their long-haul pilots?

Neat idea. Sunwest aviation used to have a 182 for staff and client rental, but I believe they got rid of it because there was very little interest. Kind of a shame. I know one guy who used to fly if all the time, but according to him, he was the only one, and he just helped with their IT.

[x-wind]

I recently had the experience of receiving some "professional" training in a transport category aircraft. There was a lot left to be desired IMHO. I also was shocked at the recovery for an non-accelerated stall: 'pitch for 15 nose up THEN power and clean the aircraft up.'

For the unusual attitude, nose up. 'Cut the power & bank 40 or more to loose altitude.' I wonder if that'll get anyone who doesn't have adequate instrument skills..

[Edo]

From the linked article,

Federal Aviation Administration test pilots conduct stall recovery the classic way: push the control column forward to unload the wing and gain airspeed and, when the wing is no longer stalled, apply power until a safe airspeed is attained and the resulting loss of height may be recovered. The technique most US carriers teach, the Advanced Aerodynamics Workshop heard, is to act at the stall warning, maintaining pitch while simultaneously applying power. No-one at Geneva was certain as to when and why this technique came to be adopted in place of the classic stall recovery.

Sounds to me like they are comparing FFA test pilots in a stall with, APPROACH TO STALL, techniques.

The last part is interesting,
In modern jet aircraft there is no extra slipstream over the wing when power is applied. The power vector is acting below the wing and the drag vector is slightly above it, leading to a natural pitch-up moment on power application, which can upset the stall recovery - especially if the wing has not been properly unloaded.

What is the stall recovery SOP, on a 737 or similar?

[structurespilot]

the study found that "professional pilots have suffered a significant decline in their basic instrument skills and, in general, pilots are not aware of this skill degradation".

Didn't Japan Airlines, some years back, buy some Citations for it's pilots to drive around in, to address this problem with their long-haul pilots?

Neat idea. Sunwest aviation used to have a 182 for staff and client rental, but I believe they got rid of it because there was very little interest. Kind of a shame. I know one guy who used to fly if all the time, but according to him, he was the only one, and he just helped with their IT.

I used to fly the Sunwest C182 all the time too, The IT guy doesn't know anything about the reasons we had to get rid of it. He was a contract IT guy, not involved in day to day opps. There were about 12 of us who flew it regular. Its gone 50% because of company politics, and 50% because of the down turn in the economy. Share holders said get rid of the non rev. AC in the fleet. The axe fell on C182, Beech 18, and our Stearman. Too bad I really miss it. Those few planes gave the company something unique, it was part of the reason I took the job. We were not just a aviation company but a group of aviation enthusiusts.

[Panama Jack]

F.M.S eye ball sucker

Yes, it has been liked to a huge vacuum cleaner: It sucks in fingers, eyes and heads.

[Ya, ya, ya]

From the linked article,

Sounds to me like they are comparing FFA test pilots in a stall with, APPROACH TO STALL, techniques.

What is the stall recovery SOP, on a 737 or similar?

I believe what Edo said above is correct. Boeing is very specific about recovery techniques when it comes to "Approach to Stall", a controlled maneuver vs. a "fully developed stall" that they consider an out of control but recoverable condition. Hence two different recoveries techniques.

[Liquid Charlie]

There has been a big push to train jet upset in the "proper" simulators - there are only 2 or 3 of these in existence - we all know that training in the actual aircraft sim is a non event -- because the main problem with jet upset are the sensations felt and the startle effect - now we only learn the mechanics with no physical sensations - these simulators will generate vertigo which certainly puts things in perspective.

[W5]

KLM student pilots to undergo mandatory upset training

http://www.flightglobal.com/channels/fi ... ining.html

KLM Flight Academy is to begin mandatory in-flight upset recovery training for students at its Phoenix, Arizona facility in February, using two Extra 300L single-engined aerobatic aircraft operated by Aviation Performance Solutions.

APS will initially teach the three-day course to 60 students a year, possibly ramping up to higher numbers based on KLM's pilot needs. The concept of required upset training has been gaining momentum in the USA, spurred by the February 2009 loss-of-control accident of a Colgan Airways Bombardier Q400 in New York.

KLM Flight Academy head of training Rob van den Heuvel, a former Lockheed F-104 fighter pilot, says the course is a first for the airline industry. Students will complete the course at the end of the single-engine training portion of their programme.

"Nowadays, training for civil aviation does not involve manoeuvres of more than 60° bank and 20° nose up or down," says van den Heuvel. "After upset training, they realise they can recover from any situation. It does a lot for self-confidence. We talked to KLM about whether it would contribute to safety and they thought it would be helpful."

KLM's Arizona flight training involves 135h in single-engined Piper Archers and retractable-gear Piper Arrows. Upset training at APS will include more than 4h of in-flight training that culminates in spin-awareness and instrument flight recoveries on the last day.

Once complete, the students return the Netherlands for 164h of twin-engined training in Beechcraft Baron simulators and aircraft as well as Boeing 737 simulators.

Van den Heuvel says that, while the results of the upset training might not be immediately obvious, he expects to "see some differences" in the students' performance when they begin initial airline training with KLM.

[Mig29]

The KLM Academy's idea is a good one, but I wonder how will that benefit the current line pilots at KLM??? I mean it's great that they will teach this to ab-initio pilots, but it still doesn't address the issue.

[trey kule]

Damn good post PJ.

Until not so long ago, IDAF used to train in J3 cubs.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

The younger pilot bs is just getting old. Please help explain to me how the situation today is different than it was 25-30 years ago when the baby boomer's had started their careers? Fresh out of the flight club, side seat on a DC-8 / L1011 ,hell some even jumped right into the FO seat. Where exactly does one gain experience without the opportunity to ..... gain experience ? It seems that if there was no retirement cap , the same people would be commanding their captain chairs at 95 years of age stating that the experience level still just isn't there?

I am pretty sure this article addresses a variety of age groups and not specifically the younger ones. I believe it was a Cathay training Capt. who stated that they can teach a 17 year old how to fly an aircraft quicker than an old vintage captain with 500,000,000 hours. Give em a few extra years with some senior pilots and in time the reigns will be handed over.

[Jerz]

Well, winds_in_flight_wtf, you can have my seat in the back next time an airliner is falling out of the sky with two inexperienced, under qualified, underpaid, and over tired pilots pulling against the stick pusher all the way to the ground.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Well, winds_in_flight_wtf, you can have my seat in the back next time an airliner is falling out of the sky with two inexperienced, under qualified, underpaid, and over tired pilots pulling against the stick pusher all the way to the ground.

You obviously did not fully comprehend my post. Try re-reading it. Are you saying that young pilots are the main cause of the issues you list above?. My point was simply the following: Age can be very discriminant way of classifying common hazards . I do not think young automatically makes someone inexperienced (pending on the job), under qualified, underpaid, or over tired. This may be the case, but I am sure there are some young ones out there who really do not complain at all as they have scored a very descent gig. Was it not a junior FO at bearskin or thunder (i do not remember which one) , who saved the lives of all on board due to his quick thinking and level of common sense during a runaway trim incident out of YQT? Captain. Experience froze up and did what a "young" , inexperienced, under qualified, underpaid, and over tired pilot would have done?

[Jerz]

You be happy to know that I followed your instructions and re-read your previous post. It seems that you got your panties tied in the not over the airline retirement cap discussion. You will be happy to know that I am not one of this old guys slowing down your promotion to the left seat.
As far as experience goes, yes, young guys are inexperience by definition. There is nothing wrong with inexperience guys in the cockpit, as long as they are paired with experience captain. Having two inexperience pilots is a recipe for disaster, sadly proven too many times. Unfortunately it seems that in order to maximize corporate profits, or for political reasons in some Third World countries, that happens more often nowadays.
I also see the quality of young pilots coming out from the flight schools today leaving much to be desire. Not talking here about Canada in particular, as I do check rides on pilots from all over the world. Hope that maybe it’s only my experience. Others can chime in here.

BTW, the original post was about pilots losing their skills, not pilots not having any skills yet to lose.

The upset recovery training was a very popular topic some years back, especially after AA 320 crash in New Jersey. Everybody was on board, Boeing, NASA, several major airlines, and even insurance companies. We had an Extra 300 on line available for dual training, together with airline pilot/aerobatic instructor. AC agreed to pay for upset training for their pilots on voluntary basis. Unfortunately the union shut it down.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

You be happy to know that I followed your instructions and re-read your previous post. It seems that you got your panties tied in the not over the airline retirement cap discussion. You will be happy to know that I am not one of this old guys slowing down your promotion to the left seat.
As far as experience goes, yes, young guys are inexperience by definition. There is nothing wrong with inexperience guys in the cockpit, as long as they are paired with experience captain. Having two inexperience pilots is a recipe for disaster, sadly proven too many times. Unfortunately it seems that in order to maximize corporate profits, or for political reasons in some Third World countries, that happens more often nowadays.
I also see the quality of young pilots coming out from the flight schools today leaving much to be desire. Not talking here about Canada in particular, as I do check rides on pilots from all over the world. Hope that maybe it’s only my experience. Others can chime in here.

BTW, the original post was about pilots losing their skills, not pilots not having any skills yet to lose.

The upset recovery training was a very popular topic some years back, especially after AA 320 crash in New Jersey. Everybody was on board, Boeing, NASA, several major airlines, and even insurance companies. We had an Extra 300 on line available for dual training, together with airline pilot/aerobatic instructor. AC agreed to pay for upset training for their pilots on voluntary basis. Unfortunately the union shut it down.

Thank you for clarification, however my reason for bringing in the retirement cap was simply to introduce the point that some "seniors" are bitter, and would not know quality if it came and slapped them in the face. I do not speak for the sake of just my own endeavors but for others as well. The pursuit of power, and those unwilling to step away from it seems to be endless from my own personal experiences. I like being the sponge taking in as much knowledge from those who have been there and done that. I do not know everything, nor will i ever.

[BTD]

The upset recovery training was a very popular topic some years back, especially after AA 320 crash in New Jersey.

If this is the accident it was an A300.
http://library.erau.edu/worldwide/find/ ... eports.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_A ... Flight_587

I can't open the PDF file because my adobe is screwed up, but if I recall the F/O had around 4500 hrs and was flying with an experienced captain. However, there had been issues with his wake turbulence techniques in the past.

Well, winds_in_flight_wtf, you can have my seat in the back next time an airliner is falling out of the sky with two inexperienced, under qualified, underpaid, and over tired pilots pulling against the stick pusher all the way to the ground.
Well, winds_in_flight_wtf, you can have my seat in the back next time an airliner is falling out of the sky with two inexperienced, under qualified, underpaid, and over tired pilots pulling against the stick pusher all the way to the ground.

While I believe your statement is accurate, the Captain of this flight was 47 years old. Not young for a dash 8 Captain. Inexperienced for the position yes.

I think where this thread has drifted is not going to go anywhere. Young and inexperienced are subjective terms. There are too many variables to make accurate statements.

The reality is, there are great pilots (judgement and stick and rudder) both young and old, experienced and inexperienced. There are horrible pilots in those categories as well.

In the above examples, the only person I would consider "young" was the Colgan F/O. The AA an experienced older crew made mistakes, and in the Colgan accident an older inexperienced Captain made mistakes. Its all over the map.

BTD

[Flying Nutcracker]

Skillfull decisions... That Beech looks like a lot of fun!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NdLN6R98nc