Online VNCs for flight planning

[Posthumane]

Many of you are probably familiar with Skyvector.com. I find it a pity that there isn't something similar available for Canada, so I thought it might be worthwhile to try to create it. I'd like to start with just an image overlay for google maps or equivalent, using scanned in VNCs. One issue is that the copyright to the maps is owned by NavCanada, and it's doubtful they would be willing to put out something like this themselves. I've emailed them to see if I can start a dialogue about using their maps to make this, and am awaiting a reply. Has anyone ever tried contacting them about something like this? Is NavCanada generally willing to release information and allow people to use it, or am I wasting my time?

Anyway, I've scanned in part of a Calgary VNC and blended it together, and found a decent program for creating an accurate overlay. I will try to post a sample when I get home to see what people think. Is this something there would be demand for?

[swixtt]

you seen vfrmap i am not sure if they are planning to do the "north"! i've emailed but have not heard.

[wowo]

This is something I desperately want Nav Canada to make available. I'm working on an Android app and right now I can only offer it to American pilots because there is simply no reliable data for Canada. It's totally depressing when you compare all the innovations that have been made in the USA v.s. Canada, and it's all because the data is easily obtainable from the FAA.

I vote we all petition Nav Canada to open up the data!

Here is an (old) screen of my app in development using a Vancouver VTA that I scanned.

[Posthumane]

Swixtt, the Vfrmap coverage is the same as skyvector - all of their data is from US charts. Western BC is covered because that data is shown on the charts for Alaska.

[swixtt]

Swixtt, the Vfrmap coverage is the same as skyvector - all of their data is from US charts. Western BC is covered because that data is shown on the charts for Alaska.

ahhh..got it. thanks

[Old Dog Flying]

Bet you any money that NavCan will demand a royalty for every download..why do you think the Yanks haven't produced charts for the Great White North. After all NC is a "not-for-profit" business.

[wowo]

ODF you are probably right. It really bugs me that navcan doesn't make any of their data available in a useful digital format.

Would it be better to have access to geo-referenced digital charts even if they cost money rather than have access to none at all?

[Posthumane]

Would it be better to have access to geo-referenced digital charts even if they cost money rather than have access to none at all?

Good question. If you can have enough ad revenue on a site that hosts these maps, then maybe it would be feasible to do it even if NavCanada does demand some royalty. I guess I'll wait and see what they say to my query.

[yzfer]

A digital format of any of their publications would be an asset to everyone. it would help me out tremendously in the flight planning process being able to quickly reference the CFS, CAP's, and LO charts right from my computer without having to dig out paper copies. I would pay for software/site access if it were available. I suppose the only downside would be the fear of someone using digital formats for actual navigation and not just for reference. I cant wait for the day when you can just grab and iPad-esque device, get in the plane and be set.

[Av_Av]

Hey Posthumane.

A couple of years ago, NavCanada granted me a non-royalty permission to use their copyrighted materials, including reproduction for resale for profit. The permission, however, had strings attached. From one of the emails:

"NAV CANADA is providing permission to reproduce various Aeronautical Publications for educational purposes under the following terms:

The publication or document must show the following:

1. NAV CANADA logo including "copyright NAV CANADA" and the year of production
2. Not for navigational use
3. For exam/training purposes only

A copy of the publication must be forwarded to my attention within 30 days of being published."

It's my understanding from the wording of this email that the permission would apply to anyone who asks. PM me if you'd like me to forward you individual contact information.

[Posthumane]

So I played around a bit with scanning a part of a map, stitching the various parts together, georeferencing the resulting image, and then breaking it up into tiles to use as a google maps overlay. I did just a small section of the Calgary VNC at first to try it out.

The result can be found here. It took me a little while to figure out which tools would work and how to use them, but now I think I could probably crank out a whole VNC in a few hours. Let me know what you think of this kind of interface. Obviously the scanned map is not ideal as it has some folds and such, but it's a start.

Av_Av - a PM is on the way.

[Hedley]

NavCan has the same problem as the music and film industry.

They don't understand the internet and are desperately frightened of it, because they see all their revenues from physical product sales vanishing.

NavCan, the music industry and the film industry need to figure out how to make revenue from selling their products online. The music industry has made baby steps i this regard, but still hates the internet with a passion. They really want everyone to go to Walmart to buy CD's.

Anyways, until someone at NavCan looks up DRM in the wiki, they're going to sue everyone's @sses off, and continue to live in the 19th century.

Please, someone at NavCan reading this, take the time and click on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

Remember, it's all pensionable time, ok?

[Posthumane]

Before everyone goes slagging NavCanada (justified or not), they haven't actually said "no" yet. Based on Av_Av's post, I have some confidence that they may be willing to play.

The big difference between the music industry and NavCanada is that the music industry is there to make money (primarily by exploiting musicians who don't know better), whereas NavCanada is there to provide a service. Since that service has costs associated with it, they have to be compensated in some way for it, but their goal is not (or at least shouldn't be) to maximize profits. Therefore, a new technology or method which streamlines their service and makes it more efficient should be a welcome addition.

Will this sort of thing cut into their paper chart sales? Doubtful. People will still want paper charts to fly with, or they will use GPS/EFBs with databases from Jepsen or the like. Even though skyvector and vfrmap are available in the US, when I start flying down there I will still be purchasing paper sectionals.

I don't think DRM is the solution - many people I know avoid DRM laced music like the plague because of the restrictions it imposes on what you can do with it.

[C-FABH]

Better check for a patent first.... In the USA, a company (RunwayFinder) managed to patent the idea of online flight planning. With an increasing number of websites like VFRMap, Skyvector, etc - they managed to successfully threaten and sue every website with a similar service (despite the fact that RunwayFinder has nevered offered a product close to the calibre of these other sites).

Some background:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Fl ... 114-1.html
http://blog.runwayfinder.com/

[r22captain]

ForeFlight App has VNC, Hi/Chart overlays.....all free.....pretty nifty app actually

http://www.foreflight.com/

There is a pro option which is like $75 a year. It includes approach plate and airport diagram overlays.

[RatherBeFlying]

My big gripe is the CFS. In a glider cockpit, all I need out of the CFS is maybe a dozen pages for airports I might use, plus the interception orders. Instead I have to carry this brick in a tight cockpit.

If the CFS was online, I could pull down the pages I need and help save forests.

[Hedley]

all I need out of the CFS is maybe a dozen pages

Uh, photocopy them? Or, scan them in and mail them to yourself and look at them on your phone?

[zed]

In some ways I like how the US does it.
US... The government collects stuff (say imagery/maps, etc) and its available to the public. Under the premise that they have already paid for it. So it is not really right for citizens to pay for it a second time.

CAN... A government agency collects stuff (imagery/maps, etc) and then creates and hands over all rights to a Crown corporation. Said Crown corporation, then uses this to generate sufficient profits to pay for whatever level of bureaucracy they feel is necessary to meet their mandate... Without really having to compete in the market place since they essentially hold a monopoly. Since the cost to re-do what they have already as a result of our tax dollars is so high that no other company would really find it worthwhile to enter the market. Nevermind all the other little legal knots they have on different aspects of flying...
Rant over.

[wowo]

ForeFlight App has VNC, Hi/Chart overlays.....all free.....pretty nifty app actually
There is a pro option which is like $75 a year. It includes approach plate and airport diagram overlays.

Actually it's free for 30 days and then the subscription is $75/year. The pro option is $150/year. As far as I know, there are no Canadian charts either.

[r22captain]

..double post..

[r22captain]

Well look at that. Should have read the fine print.
I've been using it on the east coast and has all the charts for out here.

[720]

For what it's worth.... I have an AOPA membership. They ship the magazines North and you get to use their awesome online Flight planning system (think it is Jeppesen based).

[Slats]

Check with your closest Natural Resources office. Here in the NWT they have a program (I believe is called Ozi Explorer or something like that) that they use to overlay wildlife survey routes over the appropriate VNC.

[Posthumane]

I've used OziExplorer before. It's a good program for georeferencing images, and using them as maps with GPS input. It doesn't come with any pre-loaded maps though, you have to add your own. I've used the Topo Canada maps with it for hiking and such.

[Posthumane]

So, not good news. Nav Canada is not keen on releasing copyrights to anyone except for "approved vendors." Here is the reply I got:

NAV CANADA is legislatively responsible for the provision of all aeronautical data, and therefore cannot grant permission for the redistribution of this information to a non-approved party.

Our Aeronautical Publications department is currently exploring options with approved vendors who provide aviation applications on Personal Electronic Devices such as the iPad. This is in an effort to have our maps available to customers in an electronic format for both navigation and flight planning purposes. We hope to have agreements in place with these vendors and a product available for customers by summer 2011.

If you have any further questions please feel free to contact me.

Regards,

I have inquired about how to become an "approved vendor" and am awaiting a reply. The good news is that there may be some digital maps available soon from other suppliers, though I'm not going to hold my breath on the "summer 2011" promise.