Why Must We Call FSS (while IFR)

[Doc]

Never have understood the reasoning behind this:
The requirement to call FSS, while on an IFR flight plan, working centre??
The FSS unit has a strip on each and every IFR inbound.
FSS often passes inbound IFR traffic to conflicts, even though they have not as yet been contacted by that traffic.
It ties up the frequency unnecessarily. ie., they already know where the inbound is before they are called.
It very often interferes with IFR clearances, by "walking on" ATC transmissions.
It is REDUNDANT!

Picture Chicago tower, getting a call from United 123, while 123 is working approach control, several minutes before being handed off to tower....just to let tower know of their impending arrival?

FSS know's we're inbound. They know when we will arrive. They pass us to other traffic.

We do it...why? Because some dink in Ottawa thinks we should. Why? It serves NO purpose.

End of rant.

[Hawkerflyer]

What's an FSS?

[FSS002]

Not sure what you mean. Your not sure why you have to contact FSS at all while on a IFR flight or before your handed over by centre? I don't see any reason why you would need to contact FSS before centre hands you over.

[iflyforpie]

To get current weather.

[fish4life]

Not sure what you mean. Your not sure why you have to contact FSS at all while on a IFR flight or before your handed over by centre? I don't see any reason why you would need to contact FSS before centre hands you over.

most approach plates say you must contact FSS 5 min or 15 min before... I have actually heard of guys getting violated for this by some crazy think they are IFR controller FSS guys. Don't get me wrong most FSS guys are wicked but some are less than appeasing.

[FSS002]

Not sure what you mean. Your not sure why you have to contact FSS at all while on a IFR flight or before your handed over by centre? I don't see any reason why you would need to contact FSS before centre hands you over.

most approach plates say you must contact FSS 5 min or 15 min before... I have actually heard of guys getting violated for this by some crazy think they are IFR controller FSS guys. Don't get me wrong most FSS guys are wicked but some are less than appeasing.

I've never noticed that on the approach plates. 15 minutes would seem way to early, in fact most times I would just give an altimeter and tell them to call closer. In my opinion a call a couple minutes before entering the zone is good enough.

[Hedley]

I don't see any reason why you would need to contact FSS before centre hands you over

To avoid getting a letter from Enforcement?

Reporting Procedures for IFR Aircraft When Approaching or Landing at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome

602.104 (1) This section applies to persons operating IFR aircraft when approaching or landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome, whether or not the aerodrome lies within an MF area.

(2) The pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft who intends to conduct an approach to or a landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome shall report

(a) the pilot-in-command's intentions regarding the operation of the aircraft

(i) five minutes before the estimated time of commencing the approach procedure

[Jonathan]

In Sudbury we had radar with coverage almost to the ground and very precise estimates on our strips (not all FSS are equipped like that). I used to give the altimeter setting (as centre does not have the current setting), ATIS letter and any information that could be useful such as pireps, or even traffic when I knew the aircraft would be tight with another one when closer to the airport. Full advisory was given at hand off.

[Sidebar]

Never have understood the reasoning behind this: The requirement to call FSS, while on an IFR flight plan, working centre?? We do it...why? Why? It serves NO purpose.

Another regulation written in blood. I think it initially came about because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_We ... Flight_314

[KK7]

You don't think it is a good idea to advise the arrival airport traffic of your arrival?

Nowadays, centre does advise FSS of your arrival prior, but it's still good to get your voice heard on the frequency for the other traffic to be situationally aware.

[AOW]

You don't think it is a good idea to advise the arrival airport traffic of your arrival?

Nowadays, centre does advise FSS of your arrival prior, but it's still good to get your voice heard on the frequency for the other traffic to be situationally aware.

Thats a moot point... CTR will clear you for the approach and pass you off to RDO. At that point you can advise all the traffic on the frequency of your position and intentions. When I call in 50+ miles back, and 17000' above, does that really help anybody's Situational Awareness? They hear that there's an IFR inbound, high and fast, and planning to use one of the runways in 15 minutes... I don't see any help here!

[I WAS Birddog]

Well this is an excellent thread.
Winter flying IFR flight have all the time in the world as does FSS to xmit the mandatory calls. HOWEVER...summer time is a different story because of extra seasonal aircraft in the air. Yes, it does get challenging at times for both parties to check-in and be replied to in a CAVOK VFR day. Especially when VFR seasonal airplanes are reciting a shakespear play over the FSS-radio frequency and have not yet streamlined their calls to expedite maximum usage and flow for everyone using the freq.

I don't think there is any great solution HOWEVER I applaud whomever created the "PRE-TAXI" clearance....that is a step in the right direction.

I know we're always under the boss's thumb of "on-time" performance, however let's (IFR peeps) try to be patient with the summer seasonal people AND SUMMER SEASONAL PEOPLE TRY NOT TO DISRUPT THE IFR FLOW WITH LONG WINDED ARRIVAL REPORTS OVER THE RADIO.

Do your thing and let go of the furking mic button

[W0XOF]

Specifically, the unit I work at, the ACC doesn't have to hand the a/c over to us until 8 miles from the airport. This can pose a problem, depending on a/c performance, vehicles on the runway etc. Also, we don't always know which approach (s) they have been cleared for, which end of the runway they're planning etc.

However, since we do get estimates (not always accurate, is it the NDB, IF?? etc.), use EXCDS and radar, it's not that big of a deal. However, there are lots of sites without radar. That can be a big deal.

I think Sidebar is right about where it came from (PWA @ YXC) and it still is a holdover from the pre radar in the FSS environment days. It's not really pertinent at some sites any more but it certainly still is at others.

[FSS002]

I was only speaking on experience at my site. No radar or EXCDS. Centre usually has them handed-over 10 minutes out, at the latest 5 minutes out. I'm not saying they should break any rules but I am saying a call 85 miles out with an estimate of 15+ minutes is useless to everyone.

Edit:
I will also add there are times centre forgets to pass an inbound so a call at least 5 minutes out can be very handy in a non radar/EXCDS environment.

[Oor Wullie]

IFR efficiency. I often cancel after that 15 min prior to entry call, so the guys trying to leave/start an approach dont get a departure delayed/have to hold... sometimes it's so I don't get the delay.

[FSS002]

IFR efficiency. I often cancel after that 15 min prior to entry call, so the guys trying to leave/start an approach dont get a departure delayed/have to hold... sometimes it's so I don't get the delay.

I should just keep my mouth shut! Your right that can be very helpful to all of us. But an advisory at 15 minutes is not very useful. Traffic and weather can be much different in 15 minutes.

[Doc]

WOXOF, I tend to tune in the FSS MF, just to "get the picture" while several (at least 50-70) miles out. I hear the FSS dude/dudette passing us as traffic to other traffic, with very accurate eta's etc.. Then, I'm required by CARS to take his attention away from what he's doing to transmit my impending arrival (something he is already aware of, BTW) to him. In the summer months, this often takes several attempts, interfering with and tying up the frequency. To say nothing of the fact, we're supposed to be paying attention to centre for clearances etc., some of which must be repeated as we were chatting to the FSS dude. I'm only talking IFR inbounds here....obviously, VFR inbounds are on the frequency as well. And, as Hedley pointed out, it's either tie up the frequency, or get a letter from enforcement. Why is all the chatter required? I know you're in the biz. I just find it redundant.

[Doc]

I should just keep my mouth shut! Your right that can be very helpful to all of us. But an advisory at 15 minutes is not very useful. Traffic and weather can be much different in 15 minutes.

Totally agree. For what good it is, you might as well advise the day before.

[bogey]

Here's the accident that caused procedures to be changed. Before this, you didn't have to call ahead.

Pay special attention to sections 1.10.4, 2.5, 4.1.3

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 5h0008.asp

[Doc]

Here's the accident that caused procedures to be changed. Before this, you didn't have to call ahead.

Pay special attention to sections 1.10.4, 2.5, 4.1.3

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 5h0008.asp

Still doesn't make it a good idea. A typical "knee jerk" reaction by some clueless Ottawa "paper pusher" justifying his/her very existence. Make enough rules, nobody gets hurt? BS

[W0XOF]

WOXOF, I tend to tune in the FSS MF, just to "get the picture" while several (at least 50-70) miles out. I hear the FSS dude/dudette passing us as traffic to other traffic, with very accurate eta's etc.. Then, I'm required by CARS to take his attention away from what he's doing to transmit my impending arrival (something he is already aware of, BTW) to him. In the summer months, this often takes several attempts, interfering with and tying up the frequency. To say nothing of the fact, we're supposed to be paying attention to centre for clearances etc., some of which must be repeated as we were chatting to the FSS dude. I'm only talking IFR inbounds here....obviously, VFR inbounds are on the frequency as well. And, as Hedley pointed out, it's either tie up the frequency, or get a letter from enforcement. Why is all the chatter required? I know you're in the biz. I just find it redundant.

Hey Doc. I'm not disagreeing with you, again, at my site it is pretty much redundant as we have the tools to see which approach your setting up for (not something generally passed by the centre, as the estimate usually comes in about 20-30 mins a head of time), update eta's etc. Also, if Centre hands you over 20+ miles back or more it's a non issue also.

Again, this requirement was put into place way before current technology in most FSS was even thought of (for FSS that is).

Here's a simple for instance at a site without radar. An outbound IFR requests a VFR departure due to an inbound IFR. No contact has been made with FSS from the inbound. The FSS will not know which approach they are executing. Without knowing this information and being unable to advise the taxing aircraft, by the time he's committed to a taxiway and runway, the inbound then is handed over 3 minutes from landing, they may end up picking the opposite end of the runway and end up having to wait. Having being able to pass the intended runway, the outbound could taxi and depart without getting in the face of the inbound. Defeats all advantages of the VFR departure not to mention in the planning for us on the ground to help get you guys in and out with as little delays as possible and with no conflicts

In a busier IFR environment it's important to either get that information from the inbound or if not, anticipate what the inbound's intentions are by monitoring the radar. This is done on a regular, daily basis using radar without the call. I'm sure you've heard "IFR inbound, not handed over yet, but appears to be setting up for the ILS xx, expect a delay in your clearance". Without the radar and without the call, the approach or planned runway would not be known.

Although you are listening on the MF, not all guys/gals do. You may have all the info you need, but us on the ground don't necessarily have all the info you think we need.

Also, on a side note, only pertinent traffic is based, so by listening out, you may only get part of the traffic picture as the helicopter working locally along the approach wasn't mentioned in any of the transmissions you've heard because he/she wasn't pertinent to any of the previous a/c.

Also, if you were taxing for dep and traffic was passed as "IFR inbound, not handed over yet, estimating 3 minutes", then you asked which runway they were using, and an "I don't know" was the answer, that wouldn't help you for planning at all.

Just a perspective from on the ground.

[Doc]

My thoughts tend to find the poor waiting aircraft on the ground vs. all the chatter we could avoid to be the lesser of two weevils. It's typical that a rule that makes sense for some, is rammed down everyone's throats.
The FSS's I deal with all have the radar, and are advised well in advance of an inbound's arrival. If you guys were allowed to "assign" runways, rather than let the pilots pick the one that suits "him" it would go a long way to smoothing everything out as well.
Cheers

[W0XOF]

My thoughts tend to find the poor waiting aircraft on the ground vs. all the chatter we could avoid to be the lesser of two weevils. It's typical that a rule that makes sense for some, is rammed down everyone's throats.
The FSS's I deal with all have the radar, and are advised well in advance of an inbound's arrival. If you guys were allowed to "assign" runways, rather than let the pilots pick the one that suits "him" it would go a long way to smoothing everything out as well.
Cheers

Hear hear!!!

[Jonathan]

If you guys were allowed to "assign" runways, rather than let the pilots pick the one that suits "him" it would go a long way to smoothing everything out as well.

+10

[x-wind]

Maybe its just to keep it simple.

There are ATFs and lots of MFs that don't have ground stations. So instead of having a different rule if there is a ground station they just made one guideline for IFR aerodrome operations in non-ATC environments.

Food for thought anyway.

... I do understand the premise of your rant.