Jetstar?

[rudder]

http://www.jetstar.com

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=we ... Z_aT1P5fiw

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=we ... CHmLHKT7Gw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNHidk3F ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxOQ941y ... ure=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--FP6qng ... ure=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hQ3oNTQ ... re=related

[Changes in Latitudes]

Absolutely.

[accumulous]

As of March 2011, the Jetstar Airways fleet consists of the following aircraft:

Jetstar Airways Fleet

Airbus A320-200
Australian & New Zealand domestic routes;
Asian and trans-Tasman routes;
Sydney to Nadi

Airbus A321-200
Australian domestic routes;
Asian routes.

Airbus A330-200
International routes.
Will be transferred to Qantas when Boeing 787 delivery commences.[24]

Boeing 787-8
To be used on international long-haul (Europe & US West Coast Expansion) and Australian domestic routes.
To be delivered from 2012.

[fingersmac]

I brought this up in another thread. Jetstar is a LCC subsidiary of Qantas with terms & conditions far below what you'd get at their mainline. If you want to be a pilot for Jetstar, well you better come type rated or else you have to pay. We're talking at least Jetsgo prices if you are experienced; if not, 3x to 6x what pilots paid to work for Jetsgo. And these are not bonds! You have to pay, out of your own, pocket all training costs.

[UKPilot]

I brought this up in another thread. Jetstar is a LCC subsidiary of Qantas with terms & conditions far below what you'd get at their mainline. If you want to be a pilot for Jetstar, well you better come type rated or else you have to pay. We're talking at least Jetsgo prices if you are experienced; if not, 3x to 6x what pilots paid to work for Jetsgo. And these are not bonds! You have to pay, out of your own, pocket all training costs.

Are you talking about the ab initio route when you say 3 to 6 times what used be paid at Jetsgo?

[fingersmac]

Pilots that flew for Jetsgo had to shell out $30K, cash up front bond.

Ab-Initio Pilots with Jetstar pay $180K+

Pilots with minimal experience pay $85K+

Pilots with experience have to pay the cost of a type rating, unless already typed.

So basically, unless you're type rated on a Jetstar aircraft, you have to pay.

http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program.aspx

[Double Wasp]

I do not advocate having to pay for your rating however Canadian pilots are being mislead if they think the are ahead financially compared to what is going on in Australia and Europe. Fingersmac, the numbers you have posted are correct, as far as I can tell by talking to people I know there. Do not forget however that the starting wage is significantly higher at the Australian LCC's than they are at the Canadian Main line carriers. (It should also be noted that the Cadet (abinitio) pilots start with 0 or at least near 0 time and this program appears to be dying a rather slow and painful death due to regulatory constraints).

All contracts can be found after some exhaustive searching at the Fair Work Australia Website.

Starting wage at Jetstar is:
Year 1: 87000, 2012 it is 89000
Year 2: 95000 / 98000 in 2012
Year 5: 103000 / 106000 in 2012
There are also retention bonuses after the 1st, 3rd and 5th years of service.

So after paying 30K (18K after the tax write off) for your rating, who is further ahead financially at the end of the day the first / fifth year Jetstar pilot or the first / fifth year Air Canada / Westjet pilot.

Jetstar has one of the lowest starting wages of all the LCC's in Australia. Tiger is second with 112k (including 800 / year flying pay) and Virgin leads with a start of 120k on the or so on the 737, starting wage on the E190 is similar to Jetstar.

All the above wages do not include allowances for meals or overnights.

Just playing devils advocat
Cheers
DW

[Mig29]

does someone has Qantas' pilot forum link here???

go chat with those guys and ask them what has Jetstar turned into over just few years.....Qantas is at the verge of striking against their own blood because the company has let the virus in....

[MackTheKnife]

does someone has Qantas' pilot forum link here???

go chat with those guys and ask them what has Jetstar turned into over just few years.....Qantas is at the verge of striking against their own blood because the company has let the virus in....

In another post somewhere I read that AC flt Ops were seen snooping around Qantas in Sydney. In their quest to cut costs does anyone wanna bet CR could be looking at a program similar to this one?

http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program.aspx

All LCC initial training costs could very soon be paid by the candidate.

http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cade ... nding.aspx

[fingersmac]

Originally posted on Pprune.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-po ... tract.html

From AIPA:

Jetstar declares war on its pilot group, collective bargaining and the Australian Industrial Relations System

In a cynical and underhanded, though widely anticipated move, Jetstar has announced that it no longer intends to employ pilots on Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008. And, when they did decide to talk to us, the Jetstar pilots, about it, they refused to do so in the presence of our legal representatives – representation we are legally entitled to.

Instead, in the true vein of contempt and divisiveness for which Jetstar management has become synonymous, the Company has announced that future employment of pilots will be outsourced to a newly created “shell company”, known simply as ‘a Jetstar Group Company’. In actual fact, it is an Australian registered company called Jetstar Group Pty Limited.

The proposed terms and conditions of the ‘Jetstar Group Contract’ are shocking to say the least. Pilots are ostensibly employed as ‘part time pilots’ but are essentially expected to work for, or to be available to work for more days per month than current Jetstar pilots employed on the EBA. The contract is supposedly based on the Air Pilots Award 2010, however ‘Blind Freddy’ could see that the terms and conditions are markedly inferior in practical terms, due to its ‘part time’ nature!

As a brief summary, for the Jetstar Group Pilot Contract, the pilots are told that they are initially to be ‘based’ in Australia. The Company can, at its absolute discretion, move them to any other base on its network without warning or notice and they will be paid there on ‘local terms and conditions’.

These are NOT Australian pilot positions, but Jetstar can use these pilots to
undermine EBA pilots’ terms and conditions of employment. Jetstar currently has a shortfall of pilots in both New Zealand and Singapore. If it suits them (and at the moment it definitely will suit them) these pilots WILL be force-moved to one of these countries and have no legal recourse to decline, except for “doing a .”- which comes with SIGNIFICANT penalties.

They will be paid $101 per block hour if they are actually employed in Australia.

There is no guarantee that they will not be shifted overseas at any time on
substantially lower terms and conditions!

They are guaranteed a minimum of 150 block hours per quarter (600 block hours a year) for these ostensibly ‘part time’ positions. There is no guarantee of a pay rise indefinitely.

Australian based pilots are guaranteed a minimum annual salary of AU$60,600.

There is no seniority list, so not only can these pilots be used to take hard earned positions away from EBA pilots, they can also be pit against one another, with only those toeing the company line with the most zealous self-depreciation being considered for favours such as promotion or simply not being sent overseas on even less money.

With regards to rostering, they are guaranteed to be paid for 150 block hours per quarter. They have 9 days off per month.

If the Company chooses to roster them for 50 hours per month, and assuming an average block time of 5 hours per day for domestic operations, this will leave these pilots with 10 days’ work per month. They have 9 days off so the remaining 11-12 days per month WILL BE SPENT ON STANDBY. They may be classified “PART TIME” but the Company will own their souls FULL TIME.

Alternatively, the Company may choose to roster them for 75 block hours for month 1 and 2 (with 6-7 standby days) and leave them on standby (21 or 22 days of it) for the entirety of month 3. The reason for this is to cover any schedule disruptions, sick leave, etc from EBA crew and to prevent existing EBA crew any hope of achieving overtime or day off payments.

That being said, it is not in the Company’s interest to have these pilots working much over their minimum guarantee hours as this gives them ‘maximum flexibility’ and allows them to build up an alternative labour force to offset any potential industrial action that may occur when our EBA expires in 2013.

In addition to this, for their first year of employment the pilots can be dismissed for any reason by the Company, giving them 2 weeks’ notice (see clause 17.1). In this case they will have to pay back the grossly inflated $40,000 for their A320 endorsement, and will of course be out of a job.

There are many other pitfalls of the Jetstar Group Contract but we have merely touched on some of the most glaring and obvious ones.

These prospective employees have also been furnished with a document called ‘the Jetstar Group Policy’. It is very important to understand that this policy is absolutely binding on the employees, but is in no way binding on the Company!

The pilots’ obligations:

2.1. Employees must be familiar with this Policy. Where this Policy places
obligations on employees, you must comply with them. A breach of this Policy may warrant disciplinary action, up to and including termination of employment.

As opposed to the Company’s obligations:

2.2. From time to time, amendments to this Policy will be required to reflect
changes to the Company’s operational requirements and any legislative changes. The Company may review, vary, add to or withdraw this Policy (or any part of it) from time to time in its absolute discretion.

2.3. To avoid doubt, this Policy and any obligations on the Company set out in it do not form part of an employment agreement, and are not contractually binding on the Company.

‘Jetstar Group Company’ pilots will be subjected to a pay for endorsement scheme (it is not a bond unless they leave). This entitles the Company to charge them, or deduct from their salary AU$40,000 for an A320 endorsement (possibly more in certain cases). Alteon currently charges approximately $29,000 for these endorsements for an individual ‘off the street’. Those deducting from their salary may be able to salary
sacrifice over a period of no more than 33 pay periods (months). If the individual leaves the Company or is dismissed for any reason (though it could be no fault of their own) then they have to pay back the outstanding amount.

After paying back endorsement fees (AU$1,212 per month or $14,545 per annum), and based on the minimum guaranteed salary, pilots can expect to earn the following gross annual salaries for their first 3 years of employment:

Gross Salary After Deductions: AU$46,056

Can they afford to live on this salary? Do they want to be put in a position where they are forced to move to Singapore or New Zealand (at their own cost) to live on potentially much lower salaries? How does this compare to their current position?

What does this mean for Jetstar’s EBA pilots?

Obviously the Jetstar Group Contract is a direct attack on the EBA in particular, and on the concept of collective bargaining in general.

The first and most obvious effect on EBA pilots will be a loss of overtime (extra flying allowances) and work day off payments as the Company will simply transfer this flying to a cheaper group of pilots, half of whom will be on standby.

Secondly, this move will pave the way for the Company to effectively force EBA pilots off their current conditions to gain access to promotions or desired bases, if they can find a way of getting around the Fair Work Act’s “Transfer of Business” provisions.

Thirdly, the creation of a secondary, shadow contract workforce will provide the Company with a powerless group of alternative labour should we vote to engage in industrial action in order to seek fair and reasonable terms and conditions under our next EBA when it comes up for renewal in 2013. This will drastically limit our ability to negotiate for fair terms. The Company may also use the shadow workforce’s vote should they need it to get a truly substandard agreement over the line (as they did last time). More likely, they will simply deliberately bog down negotiations as the contract workforce can be used to offset most industrial action and therefore the need to actually negotiate a new EBA will evaporate.

Further down the line, these Jetstar Group pilots are required by their contract to abide by the following:

4.2 You are required to operate Company or Client aircraft as directed by the
Company. You must carry out the duties of your role as lawfully directed and at places reasonably requested by the Company.

Therefore, if Qantas pilots are unsuccessful in obtaining the job security
provisions they seek in their next EA, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that either these pilots (or another group on equally shameful conditions) will be used to undermine their employment.

What can AIPA and AIPA members do about this?
Firstly, it is important to remember that the Company has chosen its timing very carefully (and cynically after just announcing a big round of upgrades to the current pilot group with the objective of placating them and minimising individual reprisals to this attack).

Neither pilot union can organise industrial action against this move because our EBA has not expired. That is why the Company has chosen this as the time to strike against us. Individuals cannot engage in industrial action for the same reason.

AIPA will be pursuing this matter vigorously in court.

The difference between industrial action and non-industrial action is subtle, but important.

Knowing one’s EBA, Day of Operations Agreement and Roster Build Agreement is not industrial action. Acting in one’s own best interest as an individual, whilst complying with these agreements, is not industrial action. If one’s own best interests happen to be contradictory to the Company’s but within the scope of their employment agreement, and one acts as an individual to satisfy both their own interests and the obligations contained within that agreement, then that is not industrial action.

Pretty much everything else is.

Know your rights, use them. Know your obligations, respect them.

Do not feed the jaws that bite you.

[fingersmac]

AIPA = Australian & International Pilots Association

[Double Wasp]

Fingersmac this is "new" contract is different to the current EBA that Australian pilots are on right now which is registered with Fair Work Australia. The company is trying to get the new guys to sign up to performance pay based contract and have the ability to move them to whichever arm of the company they choose. This is a pretty crappy offer and I do not believe anyone has actually accepted a job under these T&C's.

I have a couple of quick questions:
The starting wage at Jetstar (a LCC) under this new crap agreement, which has not even been approved by the federal regulatory body yet, is approx $45000 gross after your monthly rating payment correct? How much is the starting wage at Air Canada again?

Air Canada, at least domestic, has been a LCC for quite a while now.

Good luck to all of you negotiating your new contract however the first backwards step was taken a long time when the starting wage was sacrificed and it is always harder to stop something with momentum.

Have a good one

Cheers
DW

[Realitychex]

Air Canada, at least domestic, has been a LCC for quite a while now.

[fingersmac]

According to the press, they have indeed been offering and, in the case of five individuals, hiring under this new contract. They have just recently suspended hiring because of outrage by the pilot group and legal action by the AFAP, albeit with a threat of deferring any growth plans.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 6060687926

Jetstar freezes contract hirings to buy peace
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer From: The Australian May 23, 2011 12:00AM

JETSTAR has moved to head off a stoush with its pilots by putting on hold plans to put new hires on permanent part-time contracts.

But it has warned that a decision to freeze new recruitment while it negotiates with pilots may mean growth at the low-cost carrier is deferred.

News of the contracts triggered widespread anger among the low-cost carrier's pilots, prompted legal action by the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and threatened to embroil the Qantas Group in another public battle over industrial relations.

Qantas is already facing industrial action from engineers and long-haul pilots, who are expected to apply to Fair Work Australia early this week for a ballot of members for approval to take industrial action.

Jetstar pilots were incensed by the moves to put new hires on a group contract outside the enterprise agreement that guaranteed employment for just 600 hours instead of the 800-plus Jetstar pilots generally work.

Jetstar management argues the flexibility is essential to continued growth and that it needs to match pilot workload to seasonal traffic and to move pilots around the multinational group. It says it has been trying to get an agreement on the issues for three years.

But pilots viewed the move as a betrayal of the agreement and more than 300 emailed management with their concerns.

In a memo obtained by The Australian, Jetstar Group chief executive Bruce Buchanan and Australia/New Zealand chief David Hall say the airline has decided to freeze Australian recruitment until September 1. It would also withdraw active offers of the new contract and move five first officers who had already accepted the enterprise agreement.

The memo says the company is holding talks with the AFAP and is hopeful it can quickly find a path that solves its business requirements and the desire of the pilot group to employ Australian pilots through a single enterprise agreement and it can lift the freeze earlier than September 1.

"The recruitment freeze may have (an) impact on capacity plans for this year, and there may be some deferral of growth while we work through this process," it says. "We believe our actions are a constructive step towards reaching agreement on flexibility . . .

"To continue to sustainably grow, we need to resolve these issues, otherwise we will be unable to continue the same level of growth."

The Australian pilot group's EBA expires in 2013; I dread to think what Jetstar management will ask of it's pilots during the next round of negotiations. They have obviously shown no interest in adhering to the current EBA.

[Double Wasp]

According to the press, they have indeed been offering and, in the case of five individuals, hiring under this new contract. They have just recently suspended hiring because of outrage by the pilot group and legal action by the AFAP, albeit with a threat of deferring any growth plans.

At least there was outrage about it. Where was the same sentiment when Air Canada started offering new hires a 37K a year starting salary? Maybe it was Jetstar who took a few lessons from AC. Fortunately it seems the Jetstar pilots stand up for their new recruits.


Once again good luck with your negotiations because it is about time there is some positive taken with regard to starting wages in the Canadian aviation industry.

Cheers
DW

[conehead]

There is a conspiracy afoot; news from a Star Alliance member;

SIA to form long-haul low-cost subsidiary
By Siva Govindasamy

Singapore Airlines (SIA) plans to establish a no-frills low-fare subsidiary that will serve medium and long-haul routes using widebodies.

Operations at the Singapore-based wholly-owned subsidiary will begin within a year, and it will be managed separately from SIA, said the Star Alliance carrier.

"The new airline is being established following extensive review and analysis. It will enable the SIA Group to serve a largely untapped new market and cater to the growing demand among consumers for low-fare travel," added the airline.

This is the airline's first major decision under new CEO Goh Choon Phong, who took over the reins at SIA on 1 January and has largely kept a low profile while reviewing the carrier's medium to long-term strategy.

"We are seeing a new market segment being created and this will provide another growth opportunity for the SIA Group," he said. "As we have observed on short-haul routes within Asia, low-fare airlines help stimulate demand for travel, and we expect this will also prove true for longer flights."

The company remains committed to its flagship airline's premium model, and this new subsidiary will supplement the existing businesses, he added. "We remain fully committed to the further growth of SIA, which will continue to offer the highest-quality products and services to our customers."

Kuala Lumpur-based AirAsia X, in which Malaysian low-cost carrier AirAsia has a 16% stake, pioneered the long-haul low-cost model in Southeast Asia and has gradually grown since it began operations in November 2007. Its network now includes London, Paris, Tehran, Gold Coast, Melbourne, Christchurch, New Delhi, Mumbai, Chengdu, Tianjin, Hangzhou, Taipei, Seoul, Tokyo and Perth.

From Singapore, Qantas associate Jetstar Asia flies Airbus A330s long-haul to Melbourne and Auckland. It also plans to offer services to Japan and points in Europe in the near term.

Details related to the new airline's branding, products and services, and route network will be announced by its management team "in due course", said SIA.

Aircraft will initially be sourced from the parent carrier, which has 20 Boeing 787-9s and 20 Airbus A350-900s on order. SIA's spokesman said that subsequently, "all options are open on aircraft sourcing".

He added that there could be routes on which both the parent airline and the new subsidiary could operate on, although this will be decided by the management team.

SIA's regional airline SilkAir will retain its business model, he said. "SilkAir is a network carrier while this subsidiary will have a point-to-point model," he added.

[planely speaking]

There was great bitterness at Singapore when the employees took huge paycuts during SARS. That was an overblown and short-lived event and the company soon returned to record profits. The employees experienced 'low morale' after wages were not uplifted after the profits rolled in. I remember the pilots turfed the leadership that agreed to immediate 10% pay cuts. I hope to hear that the Singapore pilots are not going to have the LCC done on their backs. The SARS experience was a wakeup call to them; don't expect any sense of 'fairness' in today's industry approach to labour. Let the companies experiment (and piss off the traveling public once again) with cramming the seats in, charging exorbitant and hidden fees for everything 'extra', and then see how the experiment works out for them. Every few years the "new" business model emerges and everyone jumps aboard, whether they understand it or not, and whether it is suitable or not for their environment.

[accumulous]

The company remains committed to its flagship airline's premium model, and this new subsidiary will supplement the existing businesses, he added.

Nice line to use when you're just sticking your foot in the door of the global Union-busting LCC Arena.

We almost went hook, line, and sinker for it before the voters took the reins.

Just watch how Unions start 'globally' resisting the LCC whipsaw strategy.

[Mig29]

Once these LCC are established, it is almost impossible to get rid of them!

Steer clear of them as long as you can!

[accumulous]

Once these LCC are established, it is almost impossible to get rid of them!
Steer clear of them as long as you can!

The really successful Airlines like WestJet and Southwest have an amazing concept.

You apply your brand in only one location, that is, right across the entire Airline.

You have the depth of leadership to market the entire brand in whatever level of strength you need to compete, as a unified force.

You have the depth of leadership to be able to get all the horses pulling in the same direction at the same time.

By virtue of the depth of leadership both on the employer and the employee side of the equation, you have no need to chop the frigging gong show in half, into a have and have-not duopoly, immersed in a myriad of little special interest group side deals, public executions and resignations.

WestJet and Southwest. Amazing concepts in their own right.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Once these LCC are established, it is almost impossible to get rid of them!
Steer clear of them as long as you can!

The really successful Airlines like WestJet and Southwest have an amazing concept.

You apply your brand in only one location, that is, right across the entire Airline.

You have the depth of leadership to market the entire brand in whatever level of strength you need to compete, as a unified force.

You have the depth of leadership to be able to get all the horses pulling in the same direction at the same time.

By virtue of the depth of leadership both on the employer and the employee side of the equation, you have no need to chop the frigging gong show in half, into a have and have-not duopoly, immersed in a myriad of little special interest group side deals, public executions and resignations.

WestJet and Southwest. Amazing concepts in their own right.

You forgot to add that you pay industry leading salaries and treat your pilots with respect because management knows that a happy motivated work force is one of the best investments you can make towards long term success ....

[Rockie]

Every company says their employees are their biggest asset but only a select few like Westjet actually believe it and treat them that way. Oddly enough those are the most successful companies.

Others like "you know who" view their employees as nothing more than a cost factor, and they perpetually careen from one crisis to another never achieving what they are capable of.

[Realitychex]

Every company says their employees are their biggest asset but only a select few like Westjet actually believe it and treat them that way. Oddly enough those are the most successful companies.

Others like "you know who" view their employees as nothing more than a cost factor, and they perpetually careen from one crisis to another never achieving what they are capable of.

From a consumer perspective, anyone who thinks Jetstar is a cheap, low cost alternative is sadly mistaken.

Jetstar advertise cheap fares but by the time all the taxes, fees and add ons are included, they aren't particularly intriguing.

If you want low cost fares in SE Asia, they'd be one of my last picks. Tiger is number one, followed by Air Asia.