Transat to merge with/buy out Company X ???

[Max_Diff]

Its all over our Jazz private forum...So I just had to bring it up...There are rumors of Transat buying Thomas Cook...or Thomas Cook buying Transat....Transat buying Jazz...and Jazz buying Transat.

The only one that makes real sense to me is Transat buying Thomas cook...

[.......]

If it's any indication, which I highly doubt, we're getting both their A330s this fall (it's been announced for a while).

[rudder]

Its all over our Jazz private forum...So I just had to bring it up...There are rumors of Transat buying Thomas Cook...or Thomas Cook buying Transat....Transat buying Jazz...and Jazz buying Transat.

The only one that makes real sense to me is Transat buying Thomas cook...

Thomas Cook Group PLC dwarfs Groupe Transat Inc by almost a factor of 10, so if anybody is buying anybody it would be Cook buying Transat. As to the fate of the airline, title would have to rest with a Canadian owned and controlled company. It is a posiibility that Cook could take a minority position in Transat and status quo could continue (i.e. Groupe Transat continues to own Air Transat). There are also more complicated transactions possible involving disparities between ownership stake and voting rights that could also be used to satisfy foreign ownership and control restrictions (similar to the Sunwing/TUI transaction). The holding companies could also choose to merge subsidiary travel companies and then sort out the air carrier piece separately.

[.......]

Thomas Cook Group PLC dwarfs Groupe Transat Inc by almost a factor of 10

Factor of 10 is a bit rich...more like 4 and a bit if you compare the operating revenues of both groups, in CAD at a conversion rate of 1.5.

[rudder]

Sorry - $14.4B vs $3.5B.

Still, the underlying point of who is exponentially larger is the same. The only probable underlying truth to any of the rumours is that there is still an overcapacity in the packaged tour business in Canada and that consolidation/partnerships are a possible outcome. Not everybody can afford to maintain status quo in the current margin environment which is just a hair above break-even.

[whipline]

Maybe ts is buying out tcx's Canada operation?

[Mig29]

there has been some pretty "active" trading on the stock market on TS and Chorus shares the other day....coincidence??

[TopperHarley]

there has been some pretty "active" trading on the stock market on TS and Chorus shares the other day....coincidence??

Probably has less to do with any potential merger and more to do with this... http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... -aviation/

If the vacation market is so over-saturated and requires mergers/partnerships, then why did Jazz get into it in the first place? I cant see a merger between JZ and TS (in the sense of an AC and CDN merger where all pilots become 1 group). Maybe Groupe Transat could give some flying to JZ like how CJ flies for us, but both groups becoming 1 company is not likely to happen. TS doesnt seem like the type of company to get into scheduled ops. And I dont think Chorus has the $$ to buy TS from Group Transat.

Rumours are abound in this industry. When I was at Jazz, I heard fellow employees tell me it was "confirmed" that we'd be getting the EMB from AC, we'd be flying D8 in the carribean on contract, we'd be flying 737 for TS, we'd be flying A330s in the summer for TC, the 757 pilots were all told in their g/s that they wouldnt be returning onto the RJ, etc etc. Its best to stay out of the crew room gossip, it makes for a roller-coaster ride of emotions.

[augustus777]

OK, I just have to know from where this rumour came from?

The AC EMJ, Caribbean... had (I think something to back them up)

but please, where does this come from?

[TopperHarley]

Its not a new rumour. I remember a conversation on the ALPA board about people saying Jazz should try to purchase or partner up with TS many months ago. I heard it from other captains as well. But I wouldnt put any credence in it personally. In december I remember flying with a captain who told me it's been confirmed that Jazz will be going to EU in the summer and the 757 pilots were all told in their g/s nobody would be returning onto the RJ, we were also supposed to be flying A330s this summer. When crewroom rumours get passed around long enough, eventually they seem to get 'confirmed.' Or the infamous rumours that used to go around about what was being "confirmed" during the snapshot presentations in CRM. Its best to avoid this kind of stuff.

[Localizer]

TopperHarley .. (Chris)

I understand your concern in this matter .. you recently made the jump from Jazz to Transat, and considering the ALPA constitution calls for date-of-hire in times of mergers your concerned your seniority has gone out the window.

Rumours are just that .. nothing has been announced .. its just pilots playing CEO at the moment. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

The funny thing about that article you posted is that for a long time they said Jazz shares were under-valued .. now there overpriced? .. Sounds to me like the financial analyst don't know what's going on.

[TopperHarley]

I'll admit this rumour (not so much the rumour itself, but more so the way my Jazz friends (mostly FAs mind you) are talking about it) rubs me the wrong way.

I'm not concerned about a date-of-hire merger because I know that would never fly with the TS group. Jazz has 1500+ pilots, we have some 400, and would be severely negatively impacted by such a merge, so Id like to think our MEC would never permit it (if that were possible).

I'm not trying to slag Jazz as I enjoyed my time there and think its a great place to work. However, having made the move to Transat, I would not want to see any type of merge because of the impacts it would have on the current TS work environment, my pay, my seniority and my upgrade. The TS family is very small and does not involve the politics of a large airline like JZ or AC. I really dont want it to change, and I'd bet the extreme majority of TS pilots dont want it to change either.

[Localizer]

I'm glad to hear you like Transat .. but there is an issue with this statement:

I'm not concerned about a date-of-hire merger because I know that would never fly with the TS group. Jazz has 1500+ pilots, we have some 400, and would be severely negatively impacted by such a merge, so Id like to think our MEC would never permit it (if that were possible).

Since Transat and Jazz are both ALPA groups they have really no choice but to follow the ALPA constitution (date of hire) .. unless they choose to go the way of U.S Airways and .......... Air Canada and decertify.

Who know's what the future holds .. Its an interesting rumour to say the least, and if it happens great! I think both sides have something to gain from one another, and if it doesn't .. well business as usual. We're nothing more than pawns in this big game and we live with the decisions the people at the helm make.

[teacher]

Date of Hire is the ALPA norm BUT ALPA has always done their best to protect bases and seats. Guys wouldn't be bumped out of their seats. Didn't they place "fences" and restrictions when all the regionals merged to protect folks from having their lives turned upside down?

As for Jazz jumping into this it's more Jazz taking over some flying. No additional capacity has been added as far as I know just take'n over.

Regardless, I don't think this rumour holds any weight. Word on the street it's a rumour gone viral

[YYZatcboy]

If anyone is going to buy out anyone, Why would TS not buy out Canjet?

[Canoehead]

I'll admit this rumour (not so much the rumour itself, but more so the way my Jazz friends (mostly FAs mind you) are talking about it) rubs me the wrong way.

Not to put down the F/A's at Jazz, but I would put ZERO stock in any so called "company rumor" that originated from the Inflight department. That department couldn't manage a class trip to the zoo, so any rumors the F/A's hear (unless they hear it from Flight Ops) are likely some bizarre story that some overpaid inflight "manager" started spewing off about.
No offense to the F/A's, but given how the whole season one TC operation was almost doomed by their department, my respect for that end of company management has pretty much diminished to zero.

[DH772]

+1 to the above

From jazz perspective, it would be good on some levels with many things to be gained. But also a bit of negative impact. A merge wouldn't really create new positions but just combine the 2. So yes jazz/TS would grow but together is all. Personally I think it would mainly benefit senior folks who could possibly have the option on jumping to something big. Junior folks, not so much. Also, TS is a very small close french company, so I doubt any of them would want a merge with jazz (and i mean no disrespect in anyway to ANYONE by the french comment but I think you'll cetch my drift).

From an TS perspective, and I doubt ANY pilot would want that. I'm sorry but there would not be ENOUGH gains of merging 2 groups together for the TS boys/girls. Yea you might get bit better benefits/pensions/schedule but in the overall picture it's nothing! If that's what they wanted then they would be working for jazz and not TS.

Top captain would lose min 50k a year, lots of people would lose seniority, lose upgrade times to a 330 for many many many years to come, deal large company management and politics, and quite frankly why would someone want to merge an airline that is working efficiently on their own.

If that ever did happen you would have a lot of upset and split pilot groups.
and no I am indeed on the jazz workline. Im just being realistic about overall picture here. I would much rather see jazz expand with new work such as TC and create more jobs rather then see a merge with TS. and besides we're going to need that new work once AC starts cutting our flying to other partners.

[TopperHarley]

From an TS perspective, and I doubt ANY pilot would want that. I'm sorry but there would not be ENOUGH gains of merging 2 groups together for the TS boys/girls. Yea you might get bit better benefits/pensions/schedule but in the overall picture it's nothing! If that's what they wanted then they would be working for jazz and not TS.

True. To put things into perspective, we have 400 pilots, Jazz has 1500+. We have A330 captains who wouldn't be able to hold RJ captain with their date of hire. Such a merge would only really benefit the Jazz group and would very negatively impact the TS side (pay, seniority, upgrade). Even though we're both ALPA, we are 2 completely different kinds of airlines and operations which can't just be "molded" into 1 giant happy family. It would be completely unfair to the TS side. Id imagine there would have to be very strict fences put up in place to protect the seats, pay, upgrade time, etc of all TS pilots before we would ever agree to such a merge.

[hogster330]

I can see TS buying Thomas Cook Canada and letting the Jazz contract run its course like they have in the past when they have purchased a tour operator. After all these years,TS has always made it clear that they have absolutely no interest in domestic operations. A Canjet purchase is a more realistic possibility

[genetic jack hammer]

Make nothing of Topper's comment's about the F/A's. He just wants everyone to know that he was, according to him, a "hit" with them. Seeing how close we came to being turfed from the TC contract, aligning oneself with the F/A's won't make you many friends on the other side of the cockpit door.

[TopperHarley]

Make nothing of Topper's comment's about the F/A's. He just wants everyone to know that he was, according to him, a "hit" with them.

LOL, that's laughable, when have I ever implied that? I've always been just a "friend" and will very openly admit that I've never been invited into their hotel rooms, nor asked to join them in the hot tub in IAH (which is probably a good thing). I do, however, get hit on by a lot of the male FAs

I enjoyed my time at Jazz very much and still encourage people to join them. Just dont pay attention to all the rumours that get floated around the crew room

[TopperHarley]

...aligning oneself with the F/A's won't make you many friends on the other side of the cockpit door.

Sounds like a great recipe for good CRM

[teacher]

Like it or not, companies don't need employee blessings to merge or aquire although it does make the transition easier. Consolidation is the name of the game and bringing the flying under one roof reduces competition and allows for more efficient operating of the routes. I'd agree that IF this was the case, strict rules would have to be placed to prevent a badly fractured pilot group from being created. IF this were to happen (which I'm doubting) I could see us operating seperatly for the foreseeable future.

[mbav8r]

Teacher, nail on the head, they don't need our blessing, if for example it were a merger of Jazz/Transat, two things come to mind immediately. First, there is language in our contract specifically dealing with this. Any affiliate airline, defined as any entity that controls the company or is controlled by the company, the flying will be done by pilots on our seniority list. Control is defined as 50% ownership or voting power. So a merger will simply have to include that in the sale.
Secondly, 400 pilots of a merged list is 21% of the vote, if it came to a vote. I agree there would likely be fences, to what extent is anyone's guess.

[genetic jack hammer]

...aligning oneself with the F/A's won't make you many friends on the other side of the cockpit door.

Sounds like a great recipe for good CRM

Hey topper
Don't cut and paste parts of someone's posts and try to take it out of context. You know very well I was referring to the TC flying and how one group almost kaibashed the contract. Since then, we've all been a little cautious when discussing/hearing jazz's future plans. Had nothing to do with CRM, we all still got a job to do.