Loggin Multi Time without a PCC

[rubberduck]

Hey Guys and Gals, I recently received my CPL and am saving to finish my m-ifr this fall. I just got my first job as a Rampie throwing luggage and refueling for a small company on the west coast flying navajo's. On a lot of the flights the captain lets me sit right seat and fly the airplane with no passengers on board. He say's I can log the time as dual because he has way more than 50 hours multi and 10 on type which according to the cars is the minimum to teach someone else multi. This job is supposed to lead to a pcc eventually and I am wondering if it is legal to log the time as dual (not co-pilot) or if transport is going to give me a slap in the face and say na na in a few years when i apply for my A's.

Any advice or insight on the topic would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[iflyforpie]

There's no problem with logging the hours. After all, before you get a PCC you need to get training hours. But only so many dual hours will 'count' towards your As. (I can't remember offhand right now and am too lazy to look it up, but it is like five or ten).

Edit: Whoops, misread the question. You don't have a multi rating. I suppose you could, but you aren't really going to gain anything since I doubt that you are going to fork over the $1000 or so an hour for a 'ho to do your flight test (if the company would even let you) and by the time you get up to speed on something more reasonable you won't really have saved anything. Most multi-training is actually on one engine.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hey Guys and Gals, I recently received my CPL and am saving to finish my m-ifr this fall. I just got my first job as a Rampie throwing luggage and refueling for a small company on the west coast flying navajo's. On a lot of the flights the captain lets me sit right seat and fly the airplane with no passengers on board. He say's I can log the time as dual because he has way more than 50 hours multi and 10 on type which according to the cars is the minimum to teach someone else multi. This job is supposed to lead to a pcc eventually and I am wondering if it is legal to log the time as dual (not co-pilot) or if transport is going to give me a slap in the face and say na na in a few years when i apply for my A's.

Any advice or insight on the topic would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Not a good idea for several reasons.

1) The aircraft may be empty but it is still flying under CAR 702/703. TC takes a very dim view of training conducted on revenue flights.

2) Your "training" has to be conducted by a persons authorized to conduct training by the CP and all training has to be documented in your pilot training record. No training record means the time does not exist.

3) TC has seen all the scams and know what to look for when you send in your logbook with your ATPL application. You do not want to get on the TC shit list with dodgy logbook entries. Remember part of the application is you attesting that your application is correct.

By all means take every opportunity to learn the mighty Ho but in my opinion the most valuable lessons you get from a ride along is not manipulating the stick it is the exposure to load management, flight planning, in flight decision making and managing the paper work, none of which you will have seen in the make believe world of aviation that is typical at an FTU. Stick time is a bonus and is of some value when you start your actual PPC training, but not IMO as important as learning how real world commercial line flying works.

My 02 cents...Keep the time out of your logbook and I would go so far as to say, if any one asks, that you never touched the stick, that way there is no way you (or your Captain) can get into trouble.

[trey kule]

Here is the thing about dual in a company. What you are talking about is not dual.

1. The company has to authorize it. There is a syllabus.
2. You MUST get ground technical training on type..formal..not "here is the afm, read it"
A Navajo is a big pussycant, that can turn into a tiger in a heartbeat if something goes wrong. Lots of dead know it alls who did not get this concept. Thought they could just exaggerate and paper whip their time..You want examples..PM me, and I will send you some examples of pilots doing what you are proposing, and then killing people because they actually thought they could fly the plane.
3. Dual training deals with specific exercises, not ride arounds. Or maybe the good captain is going to self authorize an actual training program.

I going to be be blunt. this is worse than no training. It gives you the sense that you actually can fly the thing...and that is a killer attitude...literally.
I dont know if your Captain is just trying to be a standup guy,but he is not helping you at all, and should know better. To often Captain's like to help out without really giving much thought to what they are actually doing.
And to the Captain. ...not so many years ago we had a fully trained crew who decided on an empty leg to do some engine out work and shut down an engine...Could not get a restart , and ended up landing at home base on one engine..I dont think the Captain ever understood that he jeopradized the whole company by allowing that to happen, but I cant be sure, because he was looking for a new job the next day...Keep that in mind when you are plaaning to offer casual unauthorized training in someone elses airplane.

And TC will notice this. You are not the first to want to call ride around time "dual".

As to getting slapped by TC..Maybe give some thought to getting your "ehs!" with a little more than the absolute minimums, and these types of issues are not a problem. BTW. I have seen TC jump all over guys for trying to pull this kind of stunt....

Ride around in the right seat all you want. You will learn lots. But dont call it dual, and dont think you really know how to fly a Navajo at the end of it all. You are a passenger with priveleges,

[rubberduck]

Thanks everyone for the replies, but i seem to be left with more questions now. Just to clarify I do have my multi and just do not have a group one. The company is pushing me towards a vfr pcc until i can get my group one. The insurance company however says I need a minimum of 70 hours on multi before I can act as co-pilot. So how do I build the time short of paying for it myself.

[Big Pistons Forever]

. The insurance company however says I need a minimum of 70 hours on multi before I can act as co-pilot. So how do I build the time short of paying for it myself.

That makes no sense so IMO somebody is feeding you a line of BS. In any case I do not understand why a company would want to do A VFR PPC on a Ho. I have never seen this as it removes the ability to go IFR when needed

[trey kule]

The fact that you have an instrument rating is irrelevant if you are doing a VFR PPC.

If as BPF mentions, you are not being fed a line of BS, you company should do the following:

1. Put you through the ground training course (formal), and flight training course, to meet the standards of their AOC, and get you a PPC.
Then, if the Captain is Qualified, and allowed to act as a training captain (have you noticed all the little important fine details here), you can sit in the left seat as PIC under superviison when it is VFR, and get some time in. Whith 25 hours of PIC undersupervision and a proper ground and flight school training having first being accomplished you should be able to get an fo pcc, and IF you company allows crew operations, finish up any requirements as FO...Not Dual. Have you talked to your CP about this whole dual thing

But, you first post did not mention any of this..You spoke of using the times to apply for a license upgrade...Why the switch in objective?

The sense I get is you dont really want to hear the truth, but are looking for anyone to say OK..Go for. I am sure TC will allow the time if you tell them someone on a public website said it would be OK

[rubberduck]

Thanks for the time everyone, think i got what I needed. Thanks for the help!!