Aircraft Evacuation....

[Elliot Moose]

http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm
DATE: 28.05.2011 LOCAL TIME: - LOCATION: Atlanta-INtl AP (KATL), GA COUNTRY: USA
AIRLINE: Delta AL TYPE: McDD MD-88 REGISTRATION: N941DL C/N: 49814 AGE: 21 y + 11 m
OPERATION: DSP FLIGHT No.: DL 2284 FROM: Pittsburgh TO: Atlanta VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 43 CREW: 5
FATALITIES:PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0

DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor

In the later stages of the landing run on runway 08L at Atlanta Hartsfield Airport black smoke and flames were observed coming from the right maingear. The aircraft immediately stopped after it vacated the runway and initiated an emergency evacuation on the a taxyway. During evacuation process, the tail cone seperated. There were no reports about any serious injuries among passengers or crewmembers. The Airport fire brigade quickly responded and extinguished the flames. Extent of Damage to the aircraft is unkown at present.

So in response to the above incident I have to say "WHY". Why the hell would a crew take the time to leave the runway, possibly (I can see from the photo that it's a nice big holding bay in this case, but that's not my point)to a more confined area like a taxiway before initiating an evacuation due to a FIRE on board the aircraft?

I taught sim for years and over and over again I heard pilots stating that they would clear the runway and then deal with an emergency (engine fire, cabin fire, rejected takeoff, you name it). WTF?!?!? When asked why they would leave a 200' wide piece of concrete that will always be the cleanest part of the airport to pull off onto a 50' wide patch of pavement which isn't as wide as the wings, and probably has snowbanks, or mucky ground or all of the above surrounding it, in order to have the folks bail out, most pilots give some cockamamy BS about tying up the active, or causing delays. Hello? You're on f'ing FIRE! What are you thinking? "Hey Captain, let's make it harder for the dumbass SLF to get away from the aircraft, possibly turning DOWNWIND in the process and then restricting the fire brigade's acess to the burning pile of excrement that you just landed. " Why not ask the biscuit chuckers to bring fresh coffee in before we go out in the cold while you're at it?

I wouldn't normally rant like this, but I've heard it dozens of times from folks from all over (but mainly those from the U.S. and A. and Canada).

Okay somebody give me one VALID reason for doing this!

[Beefitarian]

It's not valid and reading that I believe you are correct but, I'm pretty sure I'll clear the runway because I've been conditioned to do it by the controllers that seem in this case to be like dumb owners of a smart dog.

ATC, "Clear the runway."
Pilot, "Yes master." wags tail.

[Rockie]

Why?

Because in a lot of places it's still taught that way. I still hear people say they will turn the airplane after stopping to allow the wind to direct the flames away from the fuselage.



Many years ago during a very educational training day with a major airport fire department I asked what their preference was. They adamantly insisted we stop on the centerline pointing straight down the runway. That gives them plenty of access room to place themselves where they need to be to fight the fire, and they said don't worry about it hitting the fuselage. They can pump so much foam on that thing so quickly that it won't be a problem, but they must have access. From that moment on I vowed to stop square on the line in the middle of the runway giving them as much room as possible, and have specifically taught it that way as well.

Of course we don't know what the thought process was in this incident, and it's possible he wasn't even aware of the danger until he was off the runway. So critiquing it at this stage isn't really fair.

[burhead1]

Just adding the pic

[Beefitarian]

See there's tons of space, no mud or snow banks. I think they cut the corner too tight but doesn't that look like a nice area for the fire trucks to come spray the plane with foam? And the crabby controler can't yell at me for blocking his runway.

I don't like it when they yell. I just want them to scratch my tummy and throw me a piece of chicken.

[RVgrin]

Okay somebody give me one VALID reason for doing this!

Sir, I accept your challenge.

---

"Thank-God for Auto-land", muttered the Capt., as his 747 broke out at 50 feet and braked hard to come to a stop towards the end of the only usable runway for 2336 miles.

Everyone in the Mataveri International Airport (SCIP) Control Tower had gone home hours ago, but an alert Fire Chief noticed the flames, and immediately got on the radio.

"Recommend you evacuate right there", he yelled into the radio in heavily accented - but perfect - English, "I have alerted my men".

"Negative, we'll be clearing at the end", declared the harried Captain, as he powered up and taxied the remaining 200 feet towards the large, empty ramp adjacent to the fire station.

The fire wasn't the first emergency the brave flight crew had faced that day. Two hours earlier, over the Pacific, a team of devious terrorists had poisoned all the Jumbo's passengers with a rare and lethal substance with only one known antidote.

Fortunately for them, their 747 wasn't the only plane deviating from the freak volcanic ash clouds. One of the dozens of other aircraft now heading towards Easter Island was carrying 600 vials of the remedy! Its pilots had confirmed this in the last radio transmission they made before becoming NORDO ...

[Beefitarian]

Wat? Tom Clancey or that DaVinchi code dude?

[Panama Jack]

Interesting question Mr. Elliot Moose. And I think another poster hit the nail on the head when he answered "because it is still taught that way."

At my present employer, our SOP's are to stop on the Runway, set the brakes, assess the problem, deal with it and then decide whether to evacuate (on the runway) or taxi off to the stands.

I was a little shocked then when I got a tongue lashing during some "on my own" training in a sim in Miami a few years ago, when I got an engine fire and stopped the aircraft on the runway. "Don't block the runway!" yelled the instructor. You know where this is going in a post-sim discussion between student and instructor . . . the instructor is almost always "right." I am sure that some people would justify this as being "good Airmanship." He was pleased with my handling of the exercise when the next time I turned onto the narrow taxiway and the fire extinguished on the first bottle discharge.

With a burning aircraft, shutting down a runway, or even the airport, is the least of my concerns. I have shut down a runway in real life over much less serious malfunctions. However, we are products of our training environment and all the more reason why the Law of Primacy is such an important factor for trainers to consider.

P.S. Your profile shows you are still in CYUL. Love the Smilie though.

[CID]

This is quite easy to answer. Like many large airports, the runways at ATL have high speed runway exit taxiways. Exiting on such a taxiway takes almost no extra effort or delays the time to stop the aircraft and start evacuation. And although not a factor at ATL, it keeps the runway free for other flights including possible emergency landings. Yes, it can happen twice on one day.

[Elliot Moose]

Okay CID, back to my original post--how wide are those high speed taxyways? How wide are most jet aircraft? How easy is it going to be for the fire brigade to get around a 120' wide aircraft that is parked on an 80' wide taxyway, especially if they need to move around to fight the fire? Also, last I checked, almost all major runways have: a)more than one runway (don't get me started on Calgary) and b)tow vehicles that can haul your derelict out of the way if somebody else declares a MAYDAY.

PJ, never got around to changing my locale I guess. Will look into that one one of these days, or maybe I'll just stay "covert".

Beefy, controllers can holler at me all they like, but I won't be listening--I'll be halfway through the evacuation ON THEIR RUNWAY so I'll likely be herding SLF down the back by the time they start bitching!

[C1-17]

Exiting the runway onto a narrow taxiway is going to restrict Safety Vehicles ability to access the aircraft for fire fighting. A good example would be PWA's 737 in Calgary in March of 1984. There were snow banks to contend with in that accident which made the situation worse. But, the result was a complete loss of the Aircraft.
In defence of the MD88 crew, according to avherald.com, the aircraft blew a right main gear tyre during roll out on Atlanta's 08L and vacated the runway on B7, when the right main gear was seen on fire. It's possible they were unaware of the fire until they were already on the taxiway.

[bcflyer]

Perhaps they didn't realize the severity of the situation while they were exiting the runway? Maybe they weren't told immediately that it was a fire. Obviously you can't see the maingear from the cockpit and if they were already committed to taking the highspeed exit before they were informed of the fire, it was quite possibly safer to come to a stop where they did. Trying to veer back onto the runway when already starting down an exit isn't necessarily the correct course of action.

Bottom line is nobody on this forum was in the cockpit. The end result was everyone got out ok. Sounds like a good outcome to me.

[bobcaygeon]

In a follow up to BC FLYER's comments.

When Jazz hammerer on the RJ in yyz and put the gear thru the wings, the crew had no idea of the severity of the damage caused. The deck angle was only +2-3 degrees more nose up than normal as they exited the high speed. It was the guy behind them/ATC that told them they weren't going to be going any further.

Wheel Well/Tire Fire with gear extended in most cases has no indication but a visual from an external source.

[Elliot Moose]

Okay, I'll buy the fact that in this case, they may not have known until after they exited the runway. The description reads (to me) like they knew about it, then they exited and then they bailed out. I originally posted using this example, buy with a more general philosophy in mind.

[Nark]

Bottom line is nobody on this forum was in the cockpit. The end result was everyone got out ok. Sounds like a good outcome to me.

BCFlyer nailed it.

I'm not Bob Hoover, but I do have enough experience / judgment to know that there isn't a cookie cutter answer.

Ever flown in to Atlanta? Shutting down a runway is like committing career suicide. Kind of a busy place.

[CID]

Elliott Moose, you just picked the wrong incident to use an example. The tire blew after touchdown and pilot may very well not have known the severity of the problem. Second, there is a high speed exit on the runway. Third, there are two areas on taxiway B7 that he exited on that provide MUCH more access to the airplane by emergency vehicles than the runway.

If you look at the facts, the pilot likely the right thing for the situation at hand.

Yes, there are plenty of scenarios where stopping on the runway is the only sensible option but that isn't apparent here.

[Panama Jack]

Ever flown in to Atlanta? Shutting down a runway is like committing career suicide. Kind of a busy place.

Huh?


On a separate point, I notice that the common reaction by posters during the last few accident/incident discussions has been "You weren't there so don't judge." Wrong answer. That is why accident/incident reports as well as those of violations are published . . . so that we can take a chance to learn from and see what could be done better before we are staring a similar problem in the face ourselves.

Yes, everybody did make it off without being turned into a crispy critter, and I know the old saying "It's better to be lucky than good" . . . even utter it to myself when I occasionally manage to grease the airplane onto the runway, but that is like saying that success is synonymous with luck.

[Nark]

PJ.

I don't want to do the carpet dance at Chiefs office for shutting down a runway in ATL, when it wasn't really necessary.
CID's comment explains that in his post.

On a separate point, I notice that the common reaction by posters during the last few accident/incident discussions has been "You weren't there so don't judge." Wrong answer. That is why accident/incident reports as well as those of violations are published . . . so that we can take a chance to learn from and see what could be done better before we are staring a similar problem in the face ourselves.

I must disagree with this. Aviation Board Captains, don't have the facts of the incident/accident. The NTSB/FAA/TC work hard to determine the facts. There is a significant difference.

[Panama Jack]

Nor do I, Nark. And fortunately, under my Company's SOPs, I wouldn't have to. The question which Moose Elliot is begging is why in the World some pilots/companies want to evacuate the runway during an uncertain situation into an area which is less maneuverable for fire rescue people to work in. When you have an uncertain situation is not the time for heroics. Better than explaining to the Chief Pilot why most passengers succumbed to smoke inhalation while I was trying to keep ATL's arrival wave going.

[fish4life]

Agreed with PJ 100%, if you have an emergency especially if some part of your plane is on fire and you stop on a runway and close it down and you have to justify to a CP why you shut down on the runway then there is a serious deficiency in company SOP's and the safety culture should be reviewed. Any time an aircraft is moving and you get any sort of emergency situation STOP, engage parking brake -> Assess the situation (are you on fire/ immediate danger?) -> Yes -> Evacuate or Expedited Deplanement or No -> taxing back and return pax to ramp/ gate.

That should be as simple as it is doesn't matter if your on a taxi way or if you just landed on the busiest runway in the world and the president is on final behind you if the extra 30 seconds you took to get out of the way and off the runway means the last 5 pax couldn't get off and died it's on your shoulders.

[Intentional Left Bank]

Brief threadjack: RVgrin, that made me smile. Thank you.

[Shadowfax]

Is it because the heavy 2 miles behind you may not be able to initiate a go around without touch-down on the same runway (potentially turning a "mere" tire fire into something worse?) Timing dependant they could be very short final once all the info is known and a go-around initiated/ordered by ATC. High speed exits aren't for the F1 driver in you.

I gotta think there must be a valid reason other than keeping the flow of traffic....

[xsbank]

Your priority is to safeguard your passengers. If you intend to evacuate the a/c, stop the aircraft asap and get out of it. No other considerations should be clouding your judgement. A "carpet dance?" If that is what motivates your decision-making you need to re-evaluate your career choice.

[Nark]

I think it's time to clarify.

I have no qualms about shutting down a runway, if it's warranted.

Case in point:
Last summer, I'm poking holes in the sky around Juneau. On landing, I blew the nose wheel.
I had enough momentum to turn off the runway and come to a stop on the taxiway. There was no need to shutdown the only runway, and have aircraft divert. As PIC I had to think about myself and my passengers, and the big picture.
I didn't use the cookie cutter approach, as suggested above.

Not every situation requires you to shut down and evacuate on the runway.


Just last night, almost an identical situation happened to me. The right brakes got into the high caution range. We didn't realize this until we arrived at the gate and I switched the MFD to the status page (were the temps are displayed).
This was roughly 4-5 minutes after taxing. Had they caught fire, and we did evacuate on the ramp, would the arm chair quarterbacks criticize my/(captains) crew actions? Most likely, because they weren't in the cockpit.

Like I tried to state above, there isn't a "one size fits all" solution.

Clear as mud now?

[Elliot Moose]

I think my original POINT is getting missed a bit here.

My INTENTION was to discuss this almost pervasive idea in our industry that one should land with a known EMERGENCY, or end up ON the runway with a known emergency, but then try to take the time to CLEAR the runway before initiating an evacuation. I doubt very much one would initiate a full bail out because of a blown tire. Most brakes will take up to 15min to work their way up to the caution range. Get my point?

I will admit that MAYBE the KATL guys didn't know about the fire until after they cleared the runway. The description sounds to me like they cleared the runway with the known fire and then bailed once they were over the hold line, so I used it to illustrate my point.

To reiterate, my POINT is "Why would one take the time (during a KNOWN emergency situation) to pull off onto a taxyway in order to initiate an evacuation?" The last thing I'm going to worry about is some tower controller feeling like I shit in his corn flakes by closing his runway. I'd much rather have tea and cookies with the boss and explain why I erred on the side of safety and closed down a major Delta hub airport than risk the lives of a passenger. If they want to penalize me for it, I will get a lawyer and I sure as hell don't need to work there.

Even the largest plane can initiate a missed from two miles back and not touch down. Even an A380 should be able to miss from a CAT I ILS and not touch and that is about a half mile from the end of the runway. If he's below that AND nobody knows that you're on the runway AND you need to do your once in a lifetime evacuation, well then it sucks to be you. Even at JFK, KMSP, Rome, Munich, etc. at rush hour, I would have had lots of time to pull up if the guy in front of me didn't clear the runway promptly. ATC has controls in place to ensure this as well. Of course one's own responsibility is to say "Anal Intruder Airways 112 stopping on the runway" as soon as something starts to go wrong. The Antonov behind you will be immediately instructed to go around.