class 4 flight test :S

[kyle]

can anybody give me an idea what im up for??? what types of lessons do you usually get during a class 4 instructor flight test?

[hz2p]

Sure. PM me.

[Louis]

Hmm, any lesson is fair game, although you shouldn't be surprised to see whatever exercises the students at your FTU/TC region have been failing the most recently.

[zed]

Just checked, use the forum search feature and for the query use:

class 4 "flight test"

As well select 'Flight Training' for the forum selection.

And don't forget to check off "Topics" (its not the default one) from the "Display results as:" option.

Doing all this will give you a couple pages of results, which you will then have to scan through the headers to find those that are relevant to you.

After this you can probably play around query, maybe try "flight exam" or "advice". But there's been some good advice given already, and may help you with a bit of additional leg work on your part.

Good luck with your test.

[trey kule]

You are on AvCanada asking this!!!! I have to ask you where the heck is the class 1 who is suppossed to be teaching you how to be an instructor? Or is part of their teaching to teach you to tell your students to go on Avcanada to find out what the ppl or cpl flight test is like?
Are you being so unprepared that you have to reach out to strangers for advice like this...Maybe ask for some of that money you have been paying out back.

[zed]

I read his question/request to be one of just covering all the bases. I'm sure he's discussed it with his instructor, and his intructor has told him what to expect.

But personnaly, even after being briefed by my instructor, if I was in his shoes, that wouldn't stop me from asking the people standing around the coffee pot/dispatch desk, the exact same question. Sort of the level of discussion I attribute to Avcanada.

I think getting some info/perspective from another recent ex-instructor student, is not unreasonable to expect from someone who may not be 110% confident. Whether he wants to be believe a pefect stranger, well that's up to him.

I just would like to know that in the case of Avcanada, he's expended 60 seconds of effort before asking the same question others before him have asked.

[Aviatard]

It's the avcanadian way: ask a question, get slagged for not using the search function, or have your instructor get criticized because you asked a question. Read the rules, man.

Ob. answer: you need to be prepared to teach any lesson. Obviously the longer ones will not be practical for a flight test due to time constraints, but otherwise you could get anything. Attitudes and movements is a popular one.

[Shiny Side Up]

For the instructor ride one must be prepared for any of the PPL excersises to be the subject of your PGI. That being said, the examiners at TC are semi predictable and usually have a bee in their bonnet about some particular exersise each year. Three years ago it was slips. Two years ago it was slow flight and last year it was attitudes and movements. Not sure what it is this year, but we'll find out in about a week. I suspect that the meeting to decide what TC is angry about that new class 4s don't do well is region specific, though its possible that a lot of King Air time is also gained going to a national meeting on the subject.

Though the PGI and its associated air lesson is the meat of the test keep in mind that they can also ask for any CPL excersise to be performed as well. If the past is any indication expect to perform the precision 180 excersise again. This one they've been upset about with class 4s since they introduced it to the CPL test.

[rob-air]

Ok,

Just passed mine about two weeks ago, here is a few pointers:
Know our notes
Know the guide
Know the learnig factors inside and out, example for each ones and use em as much as possible TC sure love their stuff.
Known to unknown

Ground presentation (if you nail it, the air part will be so much easier)
Have fun...I mean play the game come up with a senario invent one that helps you
Right the Title
have in front of you the POH, FTM, instructor guide, your notes and an airplane
Draw on the board and show with your hands ask QUESTIONS....have the Student(TC guy) Participate
Show things the way TC wants them...use pictures in FTM
Also back your procedures with the POH...it shows that you did not come up with it.
Put the accent on safety...lookout, ect....
Review the important stuff and finish by At the end of this lesson we will be able to...


NOW AIR

I got to teach Illusion created by drift......I had never practised that one
But the examiner said they give diversions mostly..anyway here the east coast
MAKE SURE IF HE IS THE PLAYING STUDENT OR NOT....it can be confusing
Talk as much as possible but be clear...just like you would with a real student
Set the stage...tell the now
dont do anything stupid....no skids, always look for traffic,fly the best you can, use your feet
Oh not sure if it helps but i landed with 15kts x-wind with full flaps and the examiner really like it...All I can think of right now PM me if you have more questions

[kyle]

thank you for all the help and congrats rob-air on your instructor flight test

thanks again

[AJV]

15kts x-wind with full flaps and the examiner really like it..

come on! 15kt direct crosswind? what were you flying? Pretty sure that is beyond 20% of flaps up stall speed on a 172 (10ish kts). And full flap? hmmmm......

[Beefitarian]

trey you're the only pilot friend I have. My wife won't let me talk to real live ones in person.

[rubberduck]

For the ground portion make sure you take your time, no need to rush, they are looking to see if you can convey information effectively and accurately, not how fast you can read lines off an overhead. Use examples and make sure they participate.

For the Air Part, the best piece of advice i can give is use Known to Unknown. For example, when i did it I was told to teach stalls and steep turns. My biggest problem was instead of showing what they should already know and building on that I just taught the lesson out of the book. Didn't fail but he defiantly had some notes on the topic after.

If teaching stalls get them to start in flight for max range, than go to slow flight, than take control and stall the aircraft to show them how close to the stall slow flight actually is. If you can use this known to unknown progression in the lesson it works a lot better.

Cheers, and good luck.

[Shiny Side Up]

15kts x-wind with full flaps and the examiner really like it..

come on! 15kt direct crosswind? what were you flying? Pretty sure that is beyond 20% of flaps up stall speed on a 172 (10ish kts). And full flap? hmmmm......

Fixed it for you. Your forum-fu is weak grasshopper.

[rob-air]

OK could have been less they dont report the wind or anything else where I took my ride.
the wind sock was shifting in every direction lets just say it was gusting and mainly coming from the side.....20% stall is a rule of thumb....c-172 POH says pilot with average skills should be able to handle 15kts direct x-wind safely....And yes full flaps you get tossed around a bit more on the flare but for a shorter periode of time...

[trey kule]

this is the kind of thing I was referring to when I spoke of not getting info here:

how close to the stall slow flight actually is.

anybody else notice how bloody wrong that information is ? I am not going to bother getting into the definition of slow flight, or the configuration issues, but suffice it to say that the top end of slow flight is no where near the normally deaccelarated stall speed. Too many instructors think that to demonstrate slow flight you need to fly around with the stall warning horn bleeting. It shows a complete misunderstanding of that whole phase of flight.
As an instructor, you should introduce slow flight while teaching range and endurance. Once the student has endurance set up, slow down a bit more and they will see they have to add power to maintain altitude....They are in slow flight at that point.
But hey, teaching the real basics and understanding is no where near as much fun as some of the other exercises where we can do pretend stuff is it?

My thoughts are to ignore that piece of advice, and know exactly what we mean by the slow flight range , and give some thought to configurations issues (ie..a bit of flaps down )

[hz2p]

Too many instructors think that to demonstrate slow flight you need to fly around with the stall warning horn bleeting. It shows a complete misunderstanding of that whole phase of flight

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 11-431.htm

Flight Test Exercises - Ex. 11 - Slow Flight
Assessment will be based on the candidate’s ability to:

establish and maintain the aeroplane in flight near minimum controllable airspeed as indicated by a near-constant stall warning

[Dagwood]

Too many instructors think that to demonstrate slow flight you need to fly around with the stall warning horn bleeting. It shows a complete misunderstanding of that whole phase of flight

establish and maintain the aeroplane in flight near minimum controllable airspeed as indicated by a near-constant stall warning

I agree with both of those points. When you train, learn the range of speeds; on the flight test, stick to one. While a candidate may technically be in slow flight with a wild and uncontrollable fluctuating airspeed between max endurance and brink of stall, it likely wouldn't meet the aim of the exercise.

[trey kule]

Ah, I see the confusion now. the requirement is not to just fly in slow flight, but to fly at the bottom end of the slow flight range. someone at TC needs to get their head our of their butt.
The problem when you get out of the FTU envirorment is that if you get on the backside of the curve, on say an approach, you must recognize you are in slow flight and if necessary , remember to put the nose down when you add power rather than pull it up if you are going to be short of the runway. the aim of this exercise obviously is not to have an understanding of the relationship of power and attitude (airspeed), but to determine the caniidates ability to control the aircraft in a condition where the aricraft is almost stalled...
which brings me to the real problem..the poster who I quoted made the comment of how close slow flight was to the stall..Its not. And therein lies the misuderstanding when we make a flight test requirement that does not demonstrate a knowledge of the condition.
I understand why TC may want you to fly around with the horn bleeting, as that demonstrates use of rudder for control etc., but the post demonstrated , what I felt, was a particularily abscence of understanding of what slow flight is, and therein lies the problem.
Monkey do, but no understand.

[Beefitarian]

Monkey do, but no understand.

Ooo oo eeee eeeee, [translator=english]Yeah yeah, gimme CPL![/translator]

[Shiny Side Up]

..the poster who I quoted made the comment of how close slow flight was to the stall..Its not.

I hate to be argumentitive, but well it is. Slow flight isn't a speed but a range of speeds below endurance and right to the stall. The excersise is really multi purpose and directly applicable to every flight. One needs to be able to recognize when the airplane is in slowflight, handle it while its there and know when you want to be there and when you don't, and if you don't, get away from it, or if you do, stay where your at and slide back farther on the power curve when you want to. In short its about mastering the aircraft throughout its entire speed range.

Unfortunately, to many view the flight excersises in a very limited sense, in many cases items to be checked off and passed at test time. Increasingly I'm wishing that the flight test could be more of an in depth thing that really should be graded pass/fail, almost more like a flying essay question. The examiners should have a lot of leeway to test the student and not be limited by rating them on a simple 1 to 4 on some artificial parameters.

[trey kule]

The fact slow speed flight is a range of speeds was exactly what I was referring to. the impression I got from the poster was that they , how think the stall horn and slow flight are linked, and that unless the stall warning horn was going off you were not in slow flight. And that is a real problem, because you have to recognize slow flight situations (back side of the curve) long before the stall warning horn starts going off. My point, to try and clarify it, was that if we are suddenly equating the stall warning horn to slow flight, we are missing the point.

And he was offering advice to a pilot taking a flight test...here is what I see

Examiner: when is the plane in the slow flight ?
Pilot taking advice from here...Why, when we hear the stall warning horn going off , of course.
they are very close together.

Anyone who thinks that is the correct answer needs a bit of remedial training, and if they are an instructor need a slap to the back of the head.

[hz2p]

http://tinyurl.com/3s77cs9

[iflyforpie]

The back side of the power curve starts from Vy and slower at full throttle and Endurance and slower at minimum power for level flight. When you are climbing at Vx, you are technically in the early regimes of slow flight and on the back side of the power curve.

At minimum power to maintain altitude or at absolute ceiling, Vy, Vx, Endurance, Minimum Sink, and Best Penetration are all equal. Any deviation from that speed will cause the aircraft to descend.

http://av8n.com/how/htm/energy.html#sec ... urve-intro

http://av8n.com/how/htm/power.html

[AJV]

OK could have been less they dont report the wind or anything else where I took my ride.
the wind sock was shifting in every direction lets just say it was gusting and mainly coming from the side.....20% stall is a rule of thumb....c-172 POH says pilot with average skills should be able to handle 15kts direct x-wind safely....And yes full flaps you get tossed around a bit more on the flare but for a shorter periode of time...

actually the 20% is for certification if my memory serves me right and on the same page where it says 15 kt crosswind it also says use minimum amount of flaps for the length of the field as in if it is long then use less, this is because the flaps deflect airflow down away from your tail section and what do you need to keep her straight in a side slip? rudder. So thats why I said come on. I find it odd that the examiner would have been impressed (although not totally unbelievable) when we are supposed to fly the aircraft as per the POH and teach as per the Flight Instructor guide and FTM.
my 2c