Canadair CL415 and the AT802

[System Message]

With the price of a single CL415 in the range of a dozen Air Tractor 802F with the Wipline floats, and nearly four times the power of the 802 to haul only twice the water load is there a reason why the Airtractor is so uncommon in Canadian firefighting?

[moocow]

What is the operating cost of 1 CL415 compare to a dozen AT802? I'm sure as hell the fuel, insurance, maintenance and crew cost doesn't work on payload scale. How many AT802 can you deploy on a specific target at a time without causing a collision issue? What about operation effectiveness such as loiter time, air speed to water source and distance? I'm not a fire fighting expert by any means but these are the basic questions I can come up with.

[185_guy]

The CL-415 was purpose built to fight fire. The 802 was not built with the intention to be on floats (much like many float planes mind you).
I don't know about the majority of pilots, but I do not like the idea of flying around at 100-150agl over and near fire with one fan up front. And its not the engine that's gonna fail, its all the other components like prop governors, oil coolers, fcu's, oil seals that will let go making for a bad day.
There are also other a/c out there that make effective air tankers but one reason the 802 is gaining popularity is besides a 415, how many other new aircraft are being produced that can be used in this role? (the Twin Otter comes to mind.......)
With firefighting I believe everything comes down to politics anyways so as long as you are being employed, getting paid and doing your job safely and to the best of your ability let the big wigs worry about the logistics.

[DHC5]

is there a reason why the Airtractor is so uncommon in Canadian firefighting?


Well, the 802 is just as common as the CL415 matching them 1 for 1 operating in Canada.. albeit not all 802's are amphibious..

Conair has 7 AT802's and 10 AT802 amphibs (Fireboss's)
Forrest Protection Management of NB has 6 AT802's and 1 AT802 amphib (Fireboss)

total 24 802's

ON has 9 CL415's
QC has 8 CL415's
NF/LB has 4 CL415's
MB has 3 CL415's with 1 more comin next year
BC has just as many CL415's as goals Vancouver had in game 7 of the Stanley Cup final "0"

Total CL415's 24 (25 in 2012)

Don't be surprised if ON/QC get some soon and Conair acquires more as well.. great planes for those "tight" spots a CL415 can't get into..

NOW, if we were talking combined CL215/CL415 aircraft.. it would be a different story..

Conair Group, Abbotsford, British Columbia - 4 (CL-215P)
Government Air Services, Manitoba - 2 (CL-215P);
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador - 6 (CL-215P)
Buffalo Airways, Yellowknife, Northwest Territories - 6 (CL-215P)
Ministry of Natural Resources and Wildlife, Quebec - 6 (4 CL-215P, 2 CL-215T).
Ministry of the Environment, Saskatchewan - 6 (CL-215P)

total CL215/CL415 fleet 56 vs 24 AT802's......

[Northern Flyer]

^Your numbers are a little off with regards to MB. At this time there is one 415, and seven 215's.^^

[North Shore]

great planes for those "tight" spots a CL415 can't get into..

Really?
My 215 manual says 50' to 50' with a full load at 700' PA, and 10kt headwind @28C is 4800 ft, the 415 is slightly shorter than that. From FireBoss' own figures here:http://www.firebossllc.com/specs.php the 1600hp version takes 5700ft. I'll bet that their figures are at sea level on a standard day....
Water Pig.

(Yes, I am biased! )

[CLguy]

You are comparing Apples to Oranges. The Fireboss is not even in the same league as the 415. Try comparing it to the Twin Otters which is the class it is in and you will find the price and performance is very close.

To set the record straight, any lake that a Fireboss is pulling a full load from is more than adequate for a 415.

[Doc]

Always wondered why the 802's don't darken the sky doing fuel hauls. The efficiency vs. some POS like a 748 is obvious to all but a few die hards.
As for flying over fires single engine? We operate PC12's in this country with paying passengers in 100' and 1/2 a mile??
But, as for fires, the big ones are almost always put out by Tanker 1.

[Just Duckie]

I thought that the Twin Otter load maxed out where the Fire Boss starts at!

[DHC5]

great planes for those "tight" spots a CL415 can't get into..

Really?
My 215 manual says 50' to 50' with a full load at 700' PA, and 10kt headwind @28C is 4800 ft, the 415 is slightly shorter than that. From FireBoss' own figures here:http://www.firebossllc.com/specs.php the 1600hp version takes 5700ft. I'll bet that their figures are at sea level on a standard day....
Water Pig.

(Yes, I am biased! )

Don't get me wrong.. the specs are amazing for the 415.. I was referring to the narrow/deep valleys where the 802's can get slowed up and make drops down low.. Although the QC boys are nuts!! I've seen them do a drop while climbing up a cliff face where all other operators were coming over the top for a drop and miss the target more often than not! (2003)

[Just Duckie]

It all depends on who is doing the driving, how good their eye/hand coordination is and where they got their experience. The speeds for slowing down are almost the same in the CLs as the FB but in the 215 it takes alittle more "preplanning" and technique And running up hill isn't always a bad thing. Now doing a "wing over" after the drop isn't advisable, but just like trim, speed can be your buddy. It depends on how high you need to fly up and where is the exit."One pilots ability is another ones nightmare!"

[Just Duckie]

The main difference between the CLs and the FB is that although you can't fill the FB beyond "full" of 380 us gal to get more than 4 hrs, in the CLs you can add more for long dispatches. But in the FB you can land at any airport and top off!

[tractor driver]

Interesting..........
Thanks Doc, we have 3 so far and are growing.
Perhaps you'll see more of us soon?

[Doc]

Interesting..........
Thanks Doc, we have 3 so far and are growing.
Perhaps you'll see more of us soon?

Are you talking fuel hauls, or fire bombers?
I remember several years ago seeing an 802 going in and out of YST doing fuel hauls. I thought that was bloody brilliant. Being able to burn the "product" in your hopper, gives you YVR to HNL range for ferry flights as well. Really cool airplane. You'd need more than three, but no reason, with the cost per mile(compared to the 'van and a Hawker etc.) you couldn't do ALL the fuel hauling in the north.

[tractor driver]

Fuel Haulers, for now. We are operating in the same general area as the topic question, with the same aircraft.
so far so good.

[CLguy]

DHC5 asked:

is there a reason why the Airtractor is so uncommon in Canadian firefighting?

Ontario just completed an evaluation between the Twin Otter and the Fireboss and concluded that on a 3 hour mission the Fireboss was 26% more efficient than the Twin Otter which equates to about 1 415 load an hour better than the Twin Otter. Circuit times were virtually the same.

This could be the reason and it also lacks the punch needed on hot fires as does the Twin Otter.

[Doc]

DHC5 asked:

is there a reason why the Airtractor is so uncommon in Canadian firefighting?

Ontario just completed an evaluation between the Twin Otter and the Fireboss and concluded that on a 3 hour mission the Fireboss was 26% more efficient than the Twin Otter which equates to about 1 415 load an hour better than the Twin Otter. Circuit times were virtually the same.

This could be the reason and it also lacks the punch needed on hot fires as does the Twin Otter.

Must wonder how many tax payer's $$$$$ they dumped down the toilet doing the "evaluation"? Methinks they would be further ahead spending that money on sprinkler systems and rain dancers. Have a good sumer there, CLguy!

[Driving Rain]

Well at least when your done firefighting with Twin Otter you have a Twin Otter that can multi task. Can't say the same thing for the Fire Boss.

[bigsky]

Well at least when your done firefighting with Twin Otter you have a Twin Otter that can multi task. Can't say the same thing for the Fire Boss.

Good pissing match..
So what do you do with your 25 million dollar 415 at the end of the fire season..!
Seems like the 415 boys feel threatened by the FB aircraft..

Each and every aircraft has a purpose..
The FB is filling a notch nicely for Alberta.

There was a post on here about the 415 using any lake a FB can use, I think the FB can use a lake that is shallower than the 415. Other than that, yep, when it has to be done, the 415 throws the balanced field length rules out and follows the FB into any length of lake.

[Yankee]

Come on now.......

You can spray with em', haul fuel, sling some mud, go to guns with the drug cartels. Just a quick float swap and OH BOY! ....the possibilites

800px-AirTractor_Paris_I.jpg (88.59 KiB) Viewed 12467 times

What could a haphazardly designed -6 possibly be used for??????

[Driving Rain]

Just a quick float swap and OH BOY! ....the possibilities

Trouble is once the 802 becomes a Fire Boss (amphibious floats) it stays on them it''s not an easy like the Twin Otter float to gear swap.

So what do you do with your 25 million dollar 415 at the end of the fire season.?.

I was comparing the Twin Otter and Fire Boss as they match up pretty good as fire bombers. The Twin wins hands down in my book because it can do other duties. More bang for the bucks.

I would never compare a FB to a 415 as they aren't even in the same league.

Good pissing match..

The pissing match must be in your head.

[CLguy]

Bigsky wrote:

the 415 throws the balanced field length rules out and follows the FB into any length of lake.

Since the 415 has a shorter balanced field length than the Fireboss, I can't really follow you on this one nor can I ever imagine a day where I would feel threatened by one.

I'm just a little tired of a few on this site trying to BS people into believing that the Fireboss is somehow superior to the CL's.

[Cat Driver]

We are overnighting in Wawa.

If Allah wills it my plan is to stop in Dryden in the Husky to re-fuel for Winnipeg tomorrow.

Are any of you fire killers in Dryden tomorrow?

. E.

[ABFireGuy]

No one ever said the Fireboss was better than a CL. What has been said is that it is another tool in the toolbox and it does a great job at what it does at a great price. Anytime the subject comes up there seems to be this need for defensive chest puffing and pecker measuring, notably and frequently by a select few in the Canadian Shield. Not really sure what it is you guys are so scared about. Lots of inaccurate and outdated information has been passed around on here to discredit the Fireboss. Is it a Diesel Duck? Of Course not. Is it a Twin Otter? No it's not that either. Can a group of them show up over an IA fire, surround it with mud and then hammer away on it with water and foam? Yes it can do that and much more. Is it the be all, end all of air tankers? No, but it is a handy tool. Is the 415 the be all, end all of air tankers? No, but it is a handy tool.

Can't swap the floats over...where do you guys get this stuff? Conair has a two seater used for training in the spring and then it gets put on wheels to work a contract in BC. If they are deemed unsuitable for your operation then dont buy'em! Don't import'em! Don't fly'em! But for the life of me I can't figure out why you have to slag'em. We have them in Alberta and we are very happy with them and how they fit into our firefighting program. When we need more metal, we bring it in. Now with the 215T program in full swing we have a huge selection of tankers with "punch" to call upon across the country when we need them. This idea that the 415 and only the 415 can contain a fire is getting to be a bit much.

[Cat Driver]

Initial attack ( Hitting the fire when it first starts ) makes a great difference in how long it takes to bring it under control enough for the ground crews to finish it off.

Pilots who can accurately deliver the load where it is needed also helps.