WestJet in talks to start flying overseas .. ??

[Localizer]

Seen it on the news today .. Westjet is in talks with Transport Canada about starting flights over both oceans. Does anyone know if there are 37's certified for ETOPS anywhere else in the world?

[North Shore]

Air Pacific (Fiji's nat'l carrier) flies some model of 37 YVR-HNL-Nadi, most of which is over water, so I'd assume that ETOPS applies there...

[fougapilot]

Or perhaps they are looking at another type...

[bizjet_mania]

the 737-700 have enough range to cross the pond, although I wouldn't want to ride in a narrow body across the ocean.

[Typhoon pilot]

Aloha was running a -700 HNL-YVR. They just stopped it due to their financial situation. As for sitting in a narrow body across the pond whats the difference? CP did in the DC8. Or is it just your prefferance?
All the 700 come ETOPS certified its just getting training, maint. and dispatch all set up for it.

[wha happen]

Or perhaps they are looking at another type...

I highly doubt that westjet will look at another type of aircraft. This would go against thier maintenance plans. It really cuts down on cost as far as maintenance goes if you only have on type.

AC ran into this problem when operating all different kinds of aircraft. Huge overhear with parts in stock that you may never use.

But good on westjet, hope this works out for them.

[Localizer]

Funny you say that .. CBC news world just had a bit about WestJet, first off another loss??? .. crappy .. second about them looking for a new type of a/c for there overseas runs .. so there's your answer if you believe CBC that is .. which ah .. you never know ..

[Froggy]

about them looking for a new type of a/c for there overseas runs .. so there's your answer if you believe CBC that is .. which ah .. you never know ..

Just for the record, i am a westjetter!!! (there i said it) I don't think we're getting any other type. The 737-700 has the longest range of all the NG's and is plenty of range for Hawaii, or England. As do the 600's and 800's. As for crossing in a norrow body, again what's the diff. The seat pitch isn't bad and you got T.V's to watch all the way. It wouldn't be much different from Flying YVR-YUL or YHZ Cancun, or any of the longer cross Canada routes!
Just my $0.02

[195psi]

There are over 20 other operators in the world who operate 737 NG's with ETOPS certification. Westjet is currently running Transport approved 120 mins ETOPS, this get us no where though, 180 is where Westjet needs to be, they should have by October, per TC.
As for confort, the 737-700 is way more confortable than a 757 or any cramped charter 330,320 flight I have been on.
With Westjet's improved leg room, leather seats and live TV I would rather be on a long haul flight in a 737NG than a cramped charter A330,757 or 320. AC's mainline offers little more, it's still cramped and you don't have your own TV ...yet.
Back to the CBC article it was flawed, they said Westjet would need a diffrent type of 737, we won't. Just traning-Done and some life preservers,ELT's ect.. Can't wait.

[bizjet_mania]

The -800 would barely make it across the pond and with a strong enough headwind it wouldn't make it at all. The -700 has better range than the -800. The -600 I doubt would even make it at all. From a business point of view a -700 flight from Halifax or Montreal would be good maybe even from Toronto as they would be paying less landing fees in Toronto. But from Vancouver to say Manchester, nah way not comftable enough. Too long of a flight for passengers, they will become fidgity and you need that extra room.

[skyhigh]

I agree on the comfort issue. 8 hrs or more in a 737 will get people really cranky. I read an article a few years ago that along with seat pitches, the perceived spaciousness of a widebody really adds to the comfort of the flight. Especially for the many of those who already feel that airplane travel is kinda cramped to begin with. You might be able to get away with flying across Canada but Live TV or not, i personally don't think that people will pay to sit in a "perceived" cramped aircraft when a more comfortable alternative is available for the same price. Keep in mind that going long haul will really change to economics of the airplane e.g people will need to carry more luggage which equals to more weight. Plus meals and drinks should be made available to passengers. I don't think they can remain low cost.

[bizjet_mania]

Did a flight on a L1011-500 5 years ago. Berlin-Amsterdam-Goose Bay-Toronto and I can tell you the last leg felt like it was the longest, everyone was fidgety as hell. I can't imagine doing that on a 737

[Localizer]

I'll stick to the 67 .. for now .. till the 77's and 87's arrive ..

[Dc9r2757]

Question?

With the new pax weights will the 737 numbers jive for the Hawaii flights?

Cheers

[Westrules]

The LiveTV may be nice but it won't work much farther out than the Grand Banks off of Newfoundland or an hour from Victoria heading to Hawii. I have flown overseas quite a few times and I couldn't imagine flying on a narrow body. There just isn't enough open space. And what difference are leather seats? It's just easier for the groomers to clean. I have not seen a buisness class yet with leather seats.

[twinheli]

I’m back and forth to Europe and beyond allot. In the last couple of months I have been in 330’s, L1011’s, 747’s, 757’s. The 11 hours from Amsterdam to Seattle can make a guy cranky, into the ninth hour the ……Are we there yet, starts. It is very common for the pax to get up and walk about to stretch their legs and backs. In these larger machines they have many washrooms, and are well used, at times lines form. Space and washrooms become very important half way into the long haul flights, not sure I would want to stand in a longer line doing the pee pee dance.

[Froggy]

Question?
What's the difference in the flight time from say Montreal to Vancouver, or Halifax to Cancun, or even Toronto to Victoria VS a flight from Vancouver to Hawaii or Halifax to London? We've done the first metioned flights without complaints many times and continue to do so. On a cloudy day i can't see the ground anyway, why would it be different if i could'nt see the water? I understand what you're saying that it would be nicer to go bigger for more room to walk around in the isles but really, it's not a bad thing to fly over in a 37 and the price might be cheaper too! Remember, AC doesn't exactly have rock bottom prices on any of their monopoly routes! This will cause them to lower their prices to match, this will increase the market load and fill our seats up too! Just my opinion! AS for the -800 not making it across the pond.... the -800's range is 3383 statute miles, the -700's range is 3752 statute miles and the -600's is 3510 statute miles. all full passenger, max take off weight. Vancouver to Honolulu is aprox 2708 Stat miles and flight time of aprox 6hrs. while Halifax to London Gatwick is 2870 stat miles with a flight time of aprox 6 hrs.

[balls]

Question?
What's the difference in the flight time from say Montreal to Vancouver, or Halifax to Cancun, or even Toronto to Victoria VS a flight from Vancouver to Hawaii or Halifax to London?

Operationally it's not about the time, but about the distance to a suitable airport SE. ie EROPS engines running or passengers swimming. NAT is one thing, Pacific is another. 90 min ETOPS - which what WJ has now - is not enough for OGG or HNL. 120 is probably in the works, but I don't think that is not enough, unless the 737 SE figures are superior, or the load is limited - or you may have a cigar tube hamburger stand on some atol in the ocean Once you get beyond 120 ETOPS to 138 and beyond, the cert is not quite so easy to achieve quickly and without some investment. Maybe WJ can do that - good luck to ya.

[RB211]

Question?
What's the difference in the flight time from say Montreal to Vancouver, or Halifax to Cancun, or even Toronto to Victoria VS a flight from Vancouver to Hawaii or Halifax to London?

Operationally it's not about the time, but about the distance to a suitable airport SE. ie EROPS engines running or passengers swimming. NAT is one thing, Pacific is another. 90 min ETOPS - which what WJ has now - is not enough for OGG or HNL. 120 is probably in the works, but I don't think that is not enough, unless the 737 SE figures are superior, or the load is limited - or you may have a cigar tube hamburger stand on some atol in the ocean Once you get beyond 120 ETOPS to 138 and beyond, the cert is not quite so easy to achieve quickly and without some investment. Maybe WJ can do that - good luck to ya.

Mostly true, Balls. The big problem is diversion to an alternate from the ETP under the scenario requiring the most fuel. This is usually a pressurization issue requiring two engine diversion at 10,000'.

From a planning point of there are a number of additional requirements (acounting for anti-icing etc) which can add considerable fuel to the flight plan. There is often 'additional' fuel on the plan for this.

My understanding of Aloha's ops before they pulled out was that the fuel load meant pax load restrictions and sometimes, depending on winds, routing to Oakland to tech stop .

The number of minutes ETOPS required will be impacted by the approved SE diversion speed. For the 757 it is 425 kts. Any idea what WJ is approved for with the 737?

[Froggy]

Westjet currently has 90 min etops. and is in an accelerated etops program to soon have 120 mins folled shortly after by the 138 or more etops rating! This will come quicker than you think! And besides, What other destinations would Westjet go through all this for? I think that people at the company have done their homework and figured they can do it and make some money at it as well! It would be pretty crazy to do all this without fist doing your research! Think about it!

[.......]

The prices will have to be REALLY interesting for people to fly in a narrowbody over the Atlantic... Why, will you ask? Simply, because we used to operate such planes ourselves (757) on trans-atlantic, and we're eventually confronted with replacing them with widebodies 'cause tour operators couldn't sell narrow anymore...

[ei ei owe]

Hey Froggy,

The folks at WJ didn't do their homework. They sent a hacker into AC's computers to steal the homework they had done and took numbers from there. Where's that lawsuit now?

If WJ wants to get in on some overseas routes, let 'em. They'll just end up losing more money and then the profit cheque crying would start.

[RB211]

Westjet currently has 90 min etops. and is in an accelerated etops program to soon have 120 mins folled shortly after by the 138 or more etops rating! This will come quicker than you think! And besides, What other destinations would Westjet go through all this for? I think that people at the company have done their homework and figured they can do it and make some money at it as well! It would be pretty crazy to do all this without fist doing your research! Think about it!

The time frame for ETOPS approvals under the accelerated program are detailed within TP6327E (available from the TC site). Appendix 'C' deals with the accelerated approval process, part of which states:

C.2.6 Minimum Requirements
1. As detailed in Chapter 3 of this document, the basic operational experience requirement for a given aircraft/engine combination is:

a) 12 months operation for 120 minute approval;

b) 3 months of 120 minute ETOPS experience for 138 minute approval; and

c) 12 months of 120 minute or greater ETOPS experience for greater than 138minutes.


2. The Accelerated ETOPS Operational Approval allows for a reduction of in-service experience, based on the degree of compliance with the existing air operator’s ETOPS program, which can be validated with supporting documentation. The typical operational experience requirements for a given aircraft-engine combination is:

a) Nil experience for 75 minutes (ETOPS and CMP program in place);

b) 3 months ETOPS experience for 90 minute approval; and

c) 6 months ETOPS experience for 120 minute approval.

3. All in-service experience requirements noted above assume acceptable performance. Air operator ETOPS program difficulties may require additional in-service experience ... and/or removal of the eligibility for Accelerated ETOPS Operational Approval.

Both Boeing and Airbus will say their a/c, 737-700 and A319 respectively, will easily do YVR-Hawaii. I have been told both Air Canada and C3 did their own homework and found those claims only true under ideal conditions.

[Typhoon pilot]

Just recieved 120 minutes as of Apr. 10. Crews are being trained now for ETOPS operations no word as too where they are planning or when operations will commence.

[Froggy]

What did Aloha use to fly from from Vancouver to Hawaii?????
Oh. Yeah........a 737-700!