Hey all...

Would like to fly a 16 foot kevlar canoe with my Cessna 180 on floats (external load)....never done this....things to consider? advices? flying caractheristics? things to do? to expect?

Cheers

Externals are serious business..,please PLEASE don't rely on the replies you get here before attempting this. Go find an experienced float driver that's done it before and have them show you how to properly secure the load, give you tips, etc...live and in person. I can't stress the importance of that enough.

You've got yourself a nice bird, sounds like you're having fun with it. Fly safe.

External loads can be tricky with an airplane that doesn't have rudder trim. Usually easier in 185's, and 206's, plenty of guys do it with their 180's though. Sounds like a big canoe for that airplane too, someone might correct me here.

There's some regulatory stuff on the TC website too, I think.

I understand the blunt end goes first.

If I could figure out how to post a couple of my pics on here, I could show some examples....

...but regardless, like a previous poster said - you need to get someone with canoe experience to physically show you and explain the flight characteristics. Not really good enough to just read it here then venture out.

Read the CARs concerning this and make damn sure you've gotten some in the flesh advice and pointers from someone thats flown canoes on the side of a 180 before. Have them show you how to secure it properly and perhaps come along for the 'proving' flight. I've done it only once in the 180.. Everything else has been on the side of a beaver with STC'd canoe racks. The lack of rudder trim in the 180 makes it a bit of a challenge. You'll also have to take a reduced load, and be extremely cautious at lower speeds. I will 100% reccomend GOOD quality high strength herc straps (two of them at min) AND a safety rope tied on. You do NOT want that thing moving or coming off. It will take out the tail. There are some pictures floating around of a machine that had an external load come off and I know a couple pics of a twin otter that had a cowl come off and strike the tail. Scary shit.

If you are maintaining the aeroplane yourself there are also maintenance costs to consider - when I spent my time on floats the company I worked for would not haul canoes on Cessna 180 or 185 - that was because of the cost of rebuilding the tail assemblies -- I'm sure the "new" regulations also make it near impossible to fly external loads on 180 as well

I would look for other options

For my 185 I've opted for carrying my boat inside. Check out http://www.soar1.com/soar_16.htm

It does everything I need a canoe to do and rolls up inside. I'll be taking it north to Ungava in a few weeks.

-Brad

Come on guys, this isn't rocket science. I agree you should have someone show you the proper way to secure an external load, but I wouldn't be concerned about hauling a KEVLAR canoe on the side of a 180. Be cautious if you use herc straps, you do not want to put too much force on the keel or you will break it. Obviously you will have to use allot of rudder to keep coordinated flight. You could bend your rudder tab towards the side of the external load before departure to alleviate some of the force required. Choose a relatively calm day to fly the external and have fun.

Thanks Folks....45 lbs Kevlar canoe...not that heavy...but got the point about talking to a pro..which I did this afternoon...got the specs on tying and strapping...right rudder and such....

Cheers

Count the external load as double its weight if you are planning on taking a full load...so your 45lb canoe is now 90 lbs out of your useful load.

I've hauled more 14 ft boats and canoes on 180's than I can count. First check with your insurance company. I'll bet your insurance is nonexistant when you tie that load on. Also keep in mind when you tie it on that wind currents can move that thing forward into the prop.

Fly early in the morning when it is calm and cool. Watch your engine temps and ALWAYS turn away from your load.

Lost Lake wrote:Fly early in the morning when it is calm and cool. Watch your engine temps and ALWAYS turn away from your load.

I'm trying to figure out why you would always turn away from the load? Should be no difference if you are coordinated.

I'm thinking that there is no real reason other than I like the load on my side so that I can keep a close eye on the situation. Bad things is you can't get out your door. Good thing is, you can always paddle to shore. Turning into or out of the load doesn't make much difference in my opinion as I can see what is happening, but keep in mind that turning to the left has all the weight to that side so keep your airspeed up. Maybe I'm full of it / or lucky / or not have a clue, but I don't see any other reason and do not profess to be a know it all. Go talk with guys that do it every day for a living. Take care, and fly safe.

I've tried ropes and herc straps and I feel more comfortable with ropes, there's nothing to fail with ropes. And at the end of the day ropes can be a lot faster to strap a canoe on once you get the hang of it. You don't need a big nest of ropes either, but like has been said here, it's good if someone shows you how to do it (you should practice it a few times). There should be a cinch rope involved and that's where the magic is. The type of rope is important too. I'm a little out of touch with all the names and types, but basically don't get that super stretchy shit that looks like good rope and don't get that yellow polyproplene shit (just seems to untie itself), and there's another type that kinda sucks, it's very thick weaved and has zero give to it. A thinner rope (1/4 inch) from the front of the canoe (handle on the inside) to the clete on the front of the float increases the comfort factor and same in the back if you like. There are lots of little knot techniques that make things much tighter/safer if you want a pm I can describe it a bit.

As for location on the body of the airplane, I never did a canoe on a 180 so I certainly will not profess to be an expert, but there may be a few handy things to keep in mind: once its all tied on, rotate your prop by hand to see how close it is to the canoe. It's not a big deal to be ahead of the prop with the canoe or in the (red line kill zone), the big deal is if the prop is too close to the canoe. Close by the way is a meaningless term. On a beaver I'm just guessing here, maybe a foot away or a bit less was fine by me (I didn't use canoe racks, just straight on the floats). Once tied on, I would give a good haul on the canoe to see if it moved and if it didn't well... good. If it did (rarely) I would re-tie it. On that 180 with a 16 foot canoe, keep in mind the canoe might dig into the water when you're on the plow and could cause you to turn like a bastard (and scare the shit out of ya). You might want to prepare for this directional change on takeoff and of course on landing. I honestly don't know if it'll happen though... I seen it happen with an 18 foot ladder on a 185... fun fun.

In the air, the turning tendency may be opposite to what you think (on a beaver it is anyway). If you tie it on the left, it doesn't want to turn left in the air (from say drag) requiring right rudder. It's the other way around if you can believe it. Everyone has their theories... pick yours.

Good luck.

Durango skywagon wrote:For my 185 I've opted for carrying my boat inside. Check out http://www.soar1.com/soar_16.htm

It does everything I need a canoe to do and rolls up inside. I'll be taking it north to Ungava in a few weeks.

-Brad

That's pretty neat Brad, I like that thing!

A bit pricey but who wants to fly a 185 over 900 miles with a canoe strapped outside? How big is the bundle once rolled?

Gilles

Flying with a canoe? Just google it!

For external laods, why do they recommend doubling or tripling the external load weight? Or at least that's what I remember being told once.

A Cessna actually handles a canoe quite well... I've only done it a few times, but I've flown a lot of canoes on the Beaver. I actually prefer it on the Cessna as long as its a good lake and no load. Put the canoe on the right side of the aircraft. Use Straps, not ropes (because you wont be able to see it). After placing the canoe on the float take a few steps back and make sure the keel is in line with the float. You don't want it angled up or down too much. Then tighten the straps right to the point where it almost crushes the canoe. Take some good rope and but a bow and stern line on to the respective float ballards and your set. Give your self lots of room for takeoff and try not to turn into the canoe during flight.

Thanks Kzanol

Would not it be better to have the canoe on the left side though so you can monitor better what's happening?

I have noticed that I had better performance with the boat tied on the right side but on the other hand, I feel more comfortable when I am able keep an eye on it.

I personally prefer straps for a boat and ropes for a canoe.

For those who don't agree with Lost Lake's advice (ALWAYS turn away from your load), you'll find out fast when flying a really big and heavy boat in turbulence!

RB

Lost Lake wrote:ALWAYS turn away from your load.

Y not if it increases the margin of safety? Idky anyone would argue against this, it's normally pretty easy to do especially if the canoe is on the right side of the airplane. Good tie downs and a couple of safety ropes and that canoe is going nowhere, seems like a no-brainer.

I always tied on to the left side, just had to keep an eye on it. I used to pick a point on the boat and one on the plane from where I was sitting and could glance at it/line them up every now and then to confirm it never moved an inch

nutbutter wrote:

Lost Lake wrote:ALWAYS turn away from your load.

Y not if it increases the margin of safety? Idky anyone would argue against this, it's normally pretty easy to do especially if the canoe is on the right side of the airplane. Good tie downs and a couple of safety ropes and that canoe is going nowhere, seems like a no-brainer.

Nobody is arguing against the advice; I'm just wondering what happens if you turn into the load. I assume that it is something undesirable but nobody has told me what it might be. I've turned into an external load many times without any problems but there may be a valid reason why I should not do so in future. I'm just wondering what the reason might be.