Giving advice.

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iflyforpie
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Giving advice.

Post by iflyforpie »

pika wrote: Just out of curiosity... Did you discretely pull the youngster aside and correct the error of his ways with the voice of reason and experience or just vent on this forum?
This is in relation to the other thread about intentionally staying in airborne icing.

In theory and as far as the regs go there is nothing wrong with blasting off by yourself or even with passengers and encountering or experimenting with situations you have never encountered before, like icing or even actual IMC. In fact, in many places it is required and some private operators (Navajos and such that don't fall under 604) there is very little required besides meeting the insurance requirements which are usually more limiting than the regs.

Unfortunately legal isn't always safe.


So my question is: How do you deal with somebody who is obviously, but maybe obliviously putting themselves in a dangerous condition?

I am excluding training here, because in training whether ad initio, a type rating, or a PPC you are geared up for such criticism and generally are being critiqued by somebody with far more experience than you.


But when you encounter someone who does something that is obviously dangerous, do you tell them? Do you take them aside as not to embarrass them? Or do you avoid provoking the pilot ego and the torrent of rationalization that often comes with it?


I had a situation this summer. This was just days after two glider pilots were killed and I was really feeling the mortal side of aviating. A young pilot in a 150HP 172 doing his 300NM cross-country was loading up two standard weight passengers and one over standard weight passenger to what he referred to as 'max gross'. It was the heat of the day, temp in the high 20s, no wind, 5000' density altitude, and a 3000' field with obstacles on each end.

The pucker factor goes up when I with ten times the hours take a 172 up on days like that, so I decided I would have a talk with him about the conditions, about the configuration, method, and abort considerations I use for the field.

He seemed very receptive and took my advice almost too seriously, as he unloaded passengers and did a circuit, each time loading one more passenger in. By the time he took off with a full load, the wind had picked up and the temperature had dropped, making the final takeoff effortless and probably making him wonder what on earth I was so concerned about.



My second question is, how do you as a pilot take criticism of your decisions or flying methods? Are you defensive? Or do you step back and reflect on your actions? Have you ever changed your actions based on what someone on this board has said?

Me. I am a far more conservative flier from reading this board. I don't advance prop levers until the throttles are idle because of H and Cat Driver. I always look for a wheel before touchdown fixed or movable because of 'H'. In general, I am far more willing to say no because of Cat Driver.
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YYZatcboy
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by YYZatcboy »

I can't really speak as a pilot, but one of the biggest things I wish would change as a dispatcher is to get pilot feedback on the flight plans that I make. If there is something that I do wrong or could improve on and I am not catching it, I'd like the pilots to speak up and tell me so I can fix it. I'd hate to be the dispatcher that makes people moan when they see my name on their flight plan and be completely oblivious.

I'd rather have pilots tell me my screw ups now so I have a chance of not repeating them, then not know and have to explain it to the TSB after something goes wrong...
My .02
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Me. I am a far more conservative flier from reading this board. I don't advance prop levers until the throttles are idle because of H and Cat Driver. I always look for a wheel before touchdown fixed or movable because of 'H'. In general, I am far more willing to say no because of Cat Driver.
Wow, I don't know what to say except I have made 2333 posts on Avcanada and that paragraph makes it all worth while.

I am rather disappointed Hedley chose to quit this forum because he sure had a lot of good advice to offer.

. E.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Somone wanna tell Cat Hedley was banned?
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toelessjoe
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by toelessjoe »

I'm sure someone's going to kick me in the nuts for asking this (I'll do it myself if the answer's so obvious that it requires a double face palm) but why do you choose not to touch the prop levers until touchdown? I ask because I don't know, not to question your or anybody else's technique. Also because I personally bring my props up in the king air while I'm on final in case I have to do a last minute go-around (not unheard of around here due to all the freakin' deer).

Again, not questioning your methods. After all, not all pilots are Toeless pilots :smt040 .

- Toeless.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Nark »

I missed that thread as well.

I advance the props to 2000 on short final, then full forward sometime between the power levers come to idle and touchdown. It seems to make my touch down smoother.

There have been some great advice given on this forum.

Sorry to hijack your thread pie.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by SAR_YQQ »

Put another vote in the "props full forward before landing". Props come back for climb and cruise - always forward for landing and takeoff. This is not a PT6 thing either - did the same on Dehaviland products too.

Maybe Ifly4pie is directly referring to a technique on non-turbo-prop aircraft?
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by photofly »

how do you as a pilot take criticism of your decisions or flying methods? Are you defensive? Or do you step back and reflect on your actions?
Personally I like to think I much harsher on myself than anyone else is. I hope that if someone else has a critical comment, I'm way ahead of them.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Liquid Charlie »

All the years I flew prop aircraft I never advanced the props before touchdown -- drill was always mixture -pitch - power -- maybe it had it's roots flying the round engines

it worked great on floats where you just had to add a little throttle and it would purr along on the step instead of all that high rpm and low MP --

2 man -- nfp can advance in the flare --
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Should a go around be required the prop levers are in the same quadrant as the throttles so both can be advanced together on any prop driven airplane I ever flew.

Advancing the prop levers during the descending phase of a flight such as the approach only results in more piston travel in a piston engine airplane plus more noise, in a turbine it just generates more noise......if you need higher power to descend something is really wrong.

There is a difference between a robot and an aviator, the difference is an aviator is aware of each situation and deals with it as needed...a robot is a robot.

NOTE:::

The above of course is a personal opinion. :mrgreen:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by burhead1 »

As for the prop thing, was always taught full fine would set you up for a possible overshoot if necessary.

I was going out for a night flight in light rain, As my friend and I headed out to the plane, it was being put away in the hanger. The rampy asked if I thought I was going somewhere. Took a little persuading to have him drag it back out, he said he had heard there was freezing rain. The freezing level was around 6000 and we were to be flying at 2500. So did I take a risk? I was careful stayed close to the aerodrome as it was just a local flight. Was also careful to keep an eye on the leading edge. I ended up with an earful the next day, I explained the situation and they said they were happy with my explanation.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Doc »

I never advance the props before touch down. Never have, never will. I will slap the hand of those who do it "for" me. I've done my share of missed approaches, go-arounds and I've never found the "need" to have the props "screaming" at me in full fine. It's an accepted practice, but that in no way makes it a correct practice.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

As for the prop thing, was always taught full fine would set you up for a possible overshoot if necessary.
Yes, that seems to be a common line of thinking in training.

But where do you draw the line between thinking before taking an action such as a possible go around and advancing the pitch and power levers and doing it by rote with no thought process needed?

Soon I expect the old red herring of " a deer runs onto the runway " to get tossed into this conversation...and of course there is no other way to avert certain death but to jam the throttle /' s to the stops in a micro second with no further thought process.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Doc »

burhead1 wrote:As for the prop thing, was always taught full fine would set you up for a possible overshoot if necessary.

I was going out for a night flight in light rain, As my friend and I headed out to the plane, it was being put away in the hanger. The rampy asked if I thought I was going somewhere. Took a little persuading to have him drag it back out, he said he had heard there was freezing rain. The freezing level was around 6000 and we were to be flying at 2500. So did I take a risk? I was careful stayed close to the aerodrome as it was just a local flight. Was also careful to keep an eye on the leading edge. I ended up with an earful the next day, I explained the situation and they said they were happy with my explanation.
If the report of freezing rain was an official report, then you took an unnecessary risk. Even a "hint" of freezing rain sends me hi-tailing it for cover. It really isn't something to be pissed with.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Doc »

. . wrote:
As for the prop thing, was always taught full fine would set you up for a possible overshoot if necessary.
Yes, that seems to be a common line of thinking in training.

But where do you draw the line between thinking before taking an action such as a possible go around and advancing the pitch and power levers and doing it by rote with no thought process needed?

Soon I expect the old red herring of " a deer runs onto the runway " to get tossed into this conversation...and of course there is no other way to avert certain death but to jam the throttle /' s to the stops in a micro second with no further thought process.
Even with the "dreaded deer" scenario, there is a time when you are committed to land. A point at which a go-around will/may prove a hell of a lot more risky than ground venison for supper. Like swerving your SUV to miss one on the highway may result in rolling the SUV instead of missing the deer. I don't swerve for wildlife....and if I'm well below VMC, I may not go-around for them either. Picture yourself at 100 feet, below VMC and having your engines spool up at vastly different rates? Toss in a wee cross wind, darkness and some rain/snow. Sometimes its just safer to take Bambi OUT!
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

One day I was departing Vancouver Harbor in a Twin Otter on floats, we entered cloud just past the Lions Gate bridge and about two minutes later we encountered freezing rain that was not mentioned in the weather forecast.

The ice build up was so rapid even the windshield iced up with windshield heat on.

I advised Vancouver departure I was unable to maintain altitude due to freezing rain and they vectored me to the ILS for runway 08 and I managed to get visual in time to make a right hand turn and land in the river.....using full power from the start of the descent.

The ice build up was that sudden and that fast.

Had several other close calls with freezing rain but nothing that fast before or since.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by photofly »

Even with the "dreaded deer" scenario, there is a time when you are committed to land. A point at which a go-around will/may prove a hell of a lot more risky than ground venison for supper.
Tell me more. I was taught that you're never ever ever ever committed to land. Absent corner cases like short fields, you can go around even after you've touched down (which I guess you'd call a touch and go, but, whatever.)
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Doc »

photofly wrote:
Even with the "dreaded deer" scenario, there is a time when you are committed to land. A point at which a go-around will/may prove a hell of a lot more risky than ground venison for supper.
Tell me more. I was taught that you're never ever ever ever committed to land. Absent corner cases like short fields, you can go around even after you've touched down (which I guess you'd call a touch and go, but, whatever.)
Interesting. Thought provoking. Total BS. But hey, that's just my opinion.
So, you never "close" the throttles and "land"? My calls go something like this. ".......gear green, flaps full, runway's clear, landing..." Then I "close" the throttles and land. At this point, WHY would you make a split second decision to become airborne again? Has the PNF sucked up the flaps? Are they still full down till you clear the active? If it's IMC, are you going to go rocketing off the runway right back into "it" with your pants down? You'd be courting disaster. Your engines are spooling down. You have NO idea how much runway is left. Do you have accelerate/stop distance? Have you briefed? CRM is out the window. Everybody on board is at risk. What could possibly motivate such a stupid action?
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Tell me more. I was taught that you're never ever ever ever committed to land. Absent corner cases like short fields, you can go around even after you've touched down (which I guess you'd call a touch and go, but, whatever.)
Really?

Never ever,ever,ever?

Well I can think of a few, I will relate the most definitive one where a go around would have been impossible.

I had departed St Jean Quebec for Montreal in a PBY the departure required a 180 degree reversal of the runway heading and just after turning down wind I had a catastrophic failure of the left engine.

I just barely had time to turn toward a runway that was off my right hand side and get the gear down just before I landed, by that time the engine was on fire.

It would have been impossible to go around in that instance.

Want more?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by toelessjoe »

. . wrote:Should a go around be required the prop levers are in the same quadrant as the throttles so both can be advanced together on any prop driven airplane I ever flew.

Advancing the prop levers during the descending phase of a flight such as the approach only results in more piston travel in a piston engine airplane plus more noise, in a turbine it just generates more noise......if you need higher power to descend something is really wrong.

There is a difference between a robot and an aviator, the difference is an aviator is aware of each situation and deals with it as needed...a robot is a robot.

NOTE:::

The above of course is a personal opinion. :mrgreen:
Pay attention all kiddies 25 and under, the following is the proper way to conduct yourself when engaging in a back-and-forth with your fellow aviators, many of whom have bag loads more experience than you will ever hope to have;

Doc, . - you two are completely full of shit! And Doc smells like cat food!

Of course I'm kidding, I have nothing but respect for .. And the good doctor doesn't really smell like cat food. He just smells bad. :smt040

- Toeless.
p.s. Freezing rain can and will kill you. And not that "killing me softly with his song" kind of thing, but rather the "oh nuts, my plane just became my coffin" kind of deal. Please don't mess with it.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by photofly »

. . wrote:
Tell me more. I was taught that you're never ever ever ever committed to land. Absent corner cases like short fields, you can go around even after you've touched down (which I guess you'd call a touch and go, but, whatever.)
Really?

Never ever,ever,ever?

Well I can think of a few, I will relate the most definitive one where a go around would have been impossible.

I had departed St Jean Quebec for Montreal in a PBY the departure required a 180 degree reversal of the runway heading and just after turning down wind I had a catastrophic failure of the left engine.

I just barely had time to turn toward a runway that was off my right hand side and get the gear down just before I landed, by that time the engine was on fire.

It would have been impossible to go around in that instance.

Want more?
I think we're talking at cross purposes. Maybe I should have said, I was taught, that in normal operations, you can elect to go around at any stage of a landing.

Obviously you can't go around in an single if the engine has quit. If you've run the tanks dry then your options for a go-around have diminished somewhat. That would be a case where, yes, you're committed to land. If the wings fall off, then you're committed to land. If you were piloting the Space Shuttle on short final - then yes, that's a serious commitment to a landing. Or if you don't see the moose on the runway until it's 3 feet from your windshield (maybe it had an invisibility cloak that just fell off) then you won't be able to go around in time. Although you could try to take the moose with you, I suppose. If your front seat passenger who can't fly stabs you in the chest with a steak knife then you probably are going to land too. If the ballistic recovery system attached to your aircraft detonates spontaneously and deploys the 'chute then you probably have no choice but to land. I could try to think of other examples, too.
If it's IMC, are you going to go rocketing off the runway right back into "it" with your pants down?
I'm not sure. If you take the emotive language out of your question it might help. Would you execute a late missed approach from below minimums? It wouldn't be with your pants down as you've already briefed the missed approach, but I suppose you'd have to decide if you have the runway left and whether you have obstacle clearance.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Just to keep this discussion going I would like to point out there can be a big difference between safe and legal.

For instance if you are landing on an ILS approach with say a 200 foot minimum ceiling and half mile visibility.

Using the PMA method and two experienced crew members you can safely fly the approach to one hundred feet.

For that matter you can safely land in zero zero if you have to and are competent in doing so.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by DanWEC »

To put my 9 dollars in (I'm in Toronto- so that's what 2 cents costs me.... Just this post probably cost me something.. somehow.) If I had not followed the procedure of putting props full forward by the final fix in my IFR training (Be fully configured by/before the FAF... then GUMP commencing final) I would NOT have received the recommend from my CFI. He was emphatic about it.

Is this an example of training not applying to a real world scenario? The logic of full fine makes sense though- unless you're in cruise, then I would probably pause and wait till airspeed bleeds off enough that slamming the props doesn't slow you down and kill inertia.

I could see however, there are hours spent on developing the emergency reflexes, which include hitting the props to full forward- so I suppose it would ingrained already during a go around- so that having props forward already is a redundant safety measure. (in case of a slow governer? I don't think that's possible)

To whit, during at approach that was called as an engine failure by an examiner, I had the props full fine already- and when I gave full throttle, he commended me for being efficient and only hitting the throttle, not spending precious microseconds hitting the props as well...

PS- I'm only instrument rated- and have only logged a few hours outside of training.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by BTD »

The above poster is probably going to take a beating on on the term "hitting" although I doubt that it is what was meant. Maybe it was?

The prop thing relates to knowing your aircraft, and your procedures. My opinion (if anyone cares).

Flying privately do whatever you'd like. Keeping the props back makes sense to me on piston aircraft, and I'm sure its fine on many turbines.

If you are flying for hire, do what your procedures tell you. It is the way the employer wants and expects you to fly. If you have a problem with those procedures, take steps to change them. In a two crew aircraft, the other guy expects you to do it a certain way. Introducing something new can lead to confusion.

Also knowing the aircraft plays a large role. Certain turbines (Garretts) you are restricted from commanding any sort of reverse with the "speed" levers not full forward. You risk bogging the engine down, as those levers control propeller speed and an under speed governor.
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Re: Giving advice.

Post by TG »

DanWEC wrote:To whit, during at approach that was called as an engine failure by an examiner, I had the props full fine already- and when I gave full throttle, he commended me for being efficient and only hitting the throttle, not spending precious microseconds hitting the props as well...
As . said, you can just push everything forward in the same go. So where are you going to save precious microseconds ?
Unless it is still not natural to you and you still have to think of which levers goes first.

I suspect that's actually one of the main reason schools are teaching pitch full fine on final.
To prevent Mixture/pitch/power throttles screw up with students. One set of levers being forgotten in the process of a go around or just pushed in the wrong sequence.
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